Pedophilia with 3-year old slave girls in the Bible!

[mike87]

Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible. Also, the age consent in US and Europe was as low as 10:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm


download the Quran from the link at the bottom, and find me one single verse that orders its followers to kill innocent women and children like the bible does:

Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands:

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.


A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:

Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

HERE IS A LINK TO DOWNLOAD THE HOLY QURAN:


Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible. Also, the age consent in US and Europe was as low as 10:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm


download the Quran from the link at the bottom, and find me one single verse that orders its followers to kill innocent women and children like the bible does:

Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands:

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.


A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:

Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

HERE IS A LINK TO DOWNLOAD THE HOLY QURAN:


http://www.load-islam.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=63&func=fileinfo&parent=category&filecatid=3

[alpha]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I here upon express my protest aganist the intentions of MIKE.
Christian Bible in itself dont promote any violence or Pedophilia. What Mike quoted is just history that is recorded in Bible. Bible contains traces of the social conditions of the Middle East during the period it was written. Bible quotes such events but dont approve of them in any means.Forgiveness and Love is the essence of the New-Testment.
I can understand the frustration in targeting the Old testment Bible and Talmud(Jewish scripture).
Have you read Arabian nights?? You can see similar sketchings of the social condition in Arabia. Young slave girls sold in streets to the highest bidder!!
n sorry..i never have read your Quran.
I dont intend to enter into a quarell. and n refuse to answer this thread again,watsoever happens.

[alpha]

Ive noticed all posts of Mike. He seems to be a hard core muslim. He has his room to preach what he wants.No fatwas will be made aganist him by christians for what he is doing. But i wish that no-one thinks twice about what the says..... we will have to wait till the petroleum wells in middleeast dryout for this menace to be curbed.

[PakiFoji]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I here upon express my protest aganist the intentions of MIKE.
Christian Bible in itself dont promote any violence or Pedophilia. What Mike quoted is just history that is recorded in Bible. Bible contains traces of the social conditions of the Middle East during the period it was written. Bible quotes such events but dont approve of them in any means.Forgiveness and Love is the essence of the New-Testment.
I can understand the frustration in targeting the Old testment Bible and Talmud(Jewish scripture).
Have you read Arabian nights?? You can see similar sketchings of the social condition in Arabia. Young slave girls sold in streets to the highest bidder!!
n sorry..i never have read your Quran.
I dont intend to enter into a quarell. and n refuse to answer this thread again,watsoever happens.


But the bible does promote incest. get the father drunk and fuck him, when the father gets his daughter married he must finger her. I have proof of this. too.

[alpha]

u keep the proof in your mind...u better try to think abt how exactly he did dat..n in which positions....have a gr8 time keeping it in ur mind.

[Tsigano]

Not being raised religious but in English schools where evolution and science is the core of our beliefs and plus my parents were athiests I had no time for nonsense religions. There was however a time when a 'born again' 100% Bible lead Christian of no particular denomination came to me with a genuine kind non-profitable attitude and had a series of visions about my past, present and future which no one could have poosibly known. The reason for the visions were all points in my life which needed attention from a perspective from an all powerful compassionate loving God.
As a result I read the Bible thoroughly as I was looking for faults as through my mind and understanding of science etc there was no way these encounters could've happened.
I also looked into understanding other religions including getting a copy of the quaran.
I am not of any religious following as I was raised with no preferred following so I am open to fact.
After studying all possible facts including reading the posts here. Islam is a wicked descriminative religion that acts like the inocence of a lamb but is infact a religion based on hate. (ask most Muslims what they thinks of the Jew).
The Bible I cannot find any fault with infact I find supernatural findings like prophesies etc which are again hard to explain if solely written by man. (There is one actual old testament of the Bible which is the one written in Hebrew by the Jews. Alll the others are translations and are open to possible incorrections through translation).
Historically the Bible is proven and again this makes the quaran a lie. This is not slander or bias oppinion as I am only interested in finding the truth. If there is a God then for my own sake I would want to follow the real one or it could effect my eternal life. I also do find problem within the denominations within Christian followers as not all denominations follow the Bible 100% which can be seen in the failures they produce.

[Tsigano]

I have looked on the link and I have looked up the verse in the Bible and interestingly it does not say this. It actually says spare the women that have not been married so that they can be taken as partners.
No where does it mention force, but rather that they can been known intermately. The verse is not an instruction to the reader of how he/she should conduct thier life but rather an account of an event what took place when the Jews were told to take Israel from the canaanite. It should at this point be pointed out that through archeology and historical records we know that some of the practices and ways of the religions of the middle east were horrific and included baby sacrifice etc so it is possible that this may be something to do with the harshness of the instructions carried out by the Jews in taking this land.
On reading this verse I find it harsh (Though it is definetely not as the muslim properganda article is saying. I must confess I have witnessed much Muslim brainwashing properganda in the last few years so I am not alien to this type of writings.)
I stand scepticle of why and what this verse is saying due to the rest of the Bible being so cleverly knitted together and it all points to a change of the heart to a repentant forgiving graceful loving nature with the absence of lust, worldly pleasue, hatred and wrongful anger.
It should again be noted that this verse does not promote rape as the title of this thread indicates. It is also not an instruction given to the reader. It is an written account of an event where the Jews moved into Canaan (present day Israel).
Very often there are recorded accounts in the Bible of where man has done his normal wrongful things. The reader should look to see what God thinks of the whole thing.
A good example of this is Solomon. It tells how Solomon was successful beyond belief. The message is not that Solomon was right but rather he was riddled with pride and self guidance. If the reader reads further into the Bible then it is easy to see that Solomon did wrong and proud Israel were punished.

Before anyone throws stones they should be honest with the facts. Remember that I have got a copy of the Quaran and I can quote verses giving direct instruction to the reader to act harsh to non believers. I can also look into the Arabic to prove that these verses do mean they say how they read.
Please lets stay civil. :)
Discussing facts on a non bias way is fair. to try and drag up slanderous properganda that doesn't properly present all the facts is wrong. :mad:

[Tsigano]

While we are on this subject of accusations. This is a subject that worries and sickens me.
Please look at the link. Like I have already stated, I look into all things not to find properganda and opinion but the truth and true facts.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

[miqsh]

hey there tsagno!! do u honestly believe that!!! even christian scholars have embraced islam after knowing about islam thoroughly. u think some moron who thinks that he knows more than others is going to convice u of such atrocities???? how can u even believe it?? there isn't a single hadith in that site where the atrocities have been told in the quran. muslims admit their about mistakes if there are any.



Historically the Bible is proven and again this makes the quaran a lie.

how has it been proved true? please tell me the facts that show that bible shows the right and quran shows wrong facts .




historical records we know that some of the practices and ways of the religions of the middle east were horrific and included baby sacrifice etc


that happened before islam was introduced in the middle east. that was done by the pagans, who worshipped the idols during that era.



If the reader reads further into the Bible then it is easy to see that Solomon did wrong and proud Israel were punished.


then again i would like to know how solomon was wrong. he was one of the few god fearing kings of that time. he was respectful to everyone and helped the poor. he was wise beyond anyone in the modern history and the people yet to come. although he had everything { from an ant to big whales} under his control he didn't abuse his power.




I have got a copy of the Quaran and I can quote verses giving direct instruction to the reader to act harsh to non believers.


i admit that it is true that non believers are to be cruelly treated. but it was all the fault of ur pagan ancestors that led to it. they used to treat our beloved prophet badly. spat on him. those people didn't even have the right to be in his shadow. instead of killing them, he just forgave them and let the punishment to be done to them by ALLAH. :mad:

allah allowed us even to have non believers as friends. if it wasn't for that half of the muslms wouldn't have been bad. not that all the non muslims are bad and muslims are good.



Please look at the link. Like I have already stated, I look into all things not to find properganda and opinion but the truth and true facts.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm


so u think that this site is true eh? then i bet can u find all these material in the quran too. so find them first.
the part that our prophet was looting stuff after being impoverished was because he married his children to others by mahr. he spent it on other's welfare and improving the life of the fellow muslims. when he died all that belonged to him after death was a dried up mattress, a sword and armor and couple of clothes.

he was a saintly person. even one of the most cruel person, Umar bin Khattab was moved by the words of him and the quran. i don't know how the peeople of this world can say such bad stuff about him. :mad:


i don't have to worry, the people who have done everything negative to islam shall face the consequences. yes, grave consequences. oh yes this appears to be controversial.

as the films or in normal life we find that the truth hurts in many cases so people suppress it. that is happening to islam. why is not any other religions being regarded as terrorists, rapists and stuff?????? just because Osama bin Laden touched, america, a developed country in the world, they considered him along with the al qaeda as terrorists. are the other terrorists in india who are of other religion considered to be "terrorists" actually? are other religion being suppressed by the americans??? by the christians?? by hindus??? other minor religions????. why only the muslims???? :mad:



this is for everybody, i am not demanding all of u to embrace islam. but atleast stop this silly accusations u make up. yes we have the holy war of jihad where all the able muslims participate in it against the people who have done bad against ALLAH and his messenger, Muhammad PBUH.
there isn't a chance the apostates are going to diminish the fire burning in my heart and those of my other muslim brothers too.......... :mad:

[miqsh]

anyone against anything i have said above???

[Tsigano]

Yet another brain washed Muslim. lol.

A good site that has some good facts is. I have actually met the man who made the site when he spoke at a dinner near to where I live. I was able to talk to him to see whether I found him genuine and my oppinion is that he is an honest kind man seaking the truth.

http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/

It explains here some of the archeological finds and also some of the fascination discoveries within the Bible like the the letter codes hidden within the Hebrew Torah which proves not one letter within the Bible has changed otherwise the finding couldn't work. or the prophetic number of days that the messiah will come as recording in the book of Daniel.
follow the link "why is the Bible true?"

Horrific pagan worship is still in practice today in all countries. Islam has some questionable practices like the cutting themselves. To what benefit and message is this presenting? (no doubt you will have a (in your eyes) reasonable explanation for this, lol, but that is typical of islamic brainwashing)

The Bible's version of the story of Solomon is far more involved and is in my oppinion written to a greater level of intellect.
Why?
A link explaining insight into the Quaran's version
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBsheba.html

secondly
the story in the Bible starts of well. It starts with God saying to his Father David telling that he will not finish building the temple due to having too much blood shed on his hands but it will be his son who is to finish it. To read Solomon's prayer in the beginning of his rule is amazing and to see such true honest devotion to the Lord is amazing. However Solomon's downfall was due to the taking of many foriegn wives etc which turned his heart away from Spiritual love God's to the concentration on worldly things. Having all the knowledge in the world is not enough without God at the centre of your life and the guidance of His Holy Spirit.
Two quick sites which I have just dragged up on a google search are; They cover message in the story. Observe how the Bible was written over thousands of years yet it intertwines with itself explaining stories over the years and authors. It is not just a list of do's and don'ts.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Solomon.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/rfsm-solomon.html

Observe also how Solomon is not listed for his faith in Hebrews 11 alongside Daniel, David, Samson, Gideon and the prophets.
Observe that after Solomon died the kingdom split into two and both kingdom were invaded and sent into exile. It is all listed and explained throughout the Bible.

Can you prove that the link about mohamed is false? As it seems there is a lot the suggest it isn't.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

An example of Islamic properganda is how the Muslims always bring up the European crusades of the middle east.
Do you not think this is hypocracy?
Was not these lands being conquered and invaded by Islam in the name of Jihad? Did not the followers of Islam perform harsh crimes of murder against those that failed to submit to the rule of Allah?
The European knights of the crusades claimed to be followers of Christ yet they did everything condractory to His teachings. Saladin was a cunning warlord and followed in Mohamed's footsteps as a war leader with more than many wives.
Question is what was Mohamed's intentions on the residents of Mecca when he advanced upon them?
Is it not the case that the word 'Islam' itself mean 'Submit'?
Personally if I am to believe then I would rather follow the 'Prince of Peace'.
We must remember that Islam is a very modern religion in comparrison to Christianity which has it's roots in the beginning of history through the Jewish scripters (who it should be added the true Christians have great love for as they should all mankind and God's creations)
Islam comes from a land riddled with much pagan worship and little written history so how can they claim to have any superiority in the knowledge of history? They only know what was written previously by others. We must also remember that copies of the Bible were in existance at the time before Mohammed was born so it is obvious that he must have read it to get the stories he wrote that mimmick the stories of the Bible.
Like I have said. I am not raised religious but so I have grown up with no brainwashing so my approach was done with an open mind. I have not biasism but at the same time my parents dinot raise a fool. I can see a hoax when one is presented before me.
If there is a God then perhaps you should sincerely ask Him with an honest heart.
In the Bible it says that you should also pray for blessing upon your enemies. As even an athiest can pray blessings on those he likes.

[miqsh]

i don't want to stop ur belief in christianity. there is a verse in the quran which says, the non believers' heart are sealed from the truth because they are useless to convince them. i found it hard to understand how people can turn away from the truth, now i see why. they try to defend their belief. so i don't find ur reaction surprising. oh i would like to congratulate the person who has convinced u that the bible is the truth and the quran isn't. the da vinci code - the new film out showed that the basis of christianity wasn't on firm grounds.

meaning of islam is submittance to peace. it is not only to submit. know facts properly.so this scholar of yours also tell u that he learnt arabic scriptures or guessed it out like all the archaelogists do??

is he an aethist too?? or has he got a "better" religion to follow??

did u know that the book given to Isa{jesus} was called injeel, which was converted to the present known bible formed by the catholic church.

ask the scholar whether he knows that or not. i am sure he would be evasive in his answer. oh if u have embraced christianity, try converting the newly reverted muslims who were christians before. their experience should tell u more than what i can tell.

u tell that u aren't biased but don't u think the scum the christianity holds aren't revealed to u at all.

enjoy ur time of what is available to u for u cannot after the day of the judgement. so stop cursing the muslim faith.

the first step u show that ur civilised enough to understand is to be reserved in ur actions. the actions the "scholar" had done is biased, hurting and foolish. the choice of religion is based on each of the individuals. why are the christians and others trying to put down Islam??? is there a muslim site where jesus is accused of such and such. what is ur age?? don't tell me that u are below five.

yes the muslims went across the lands and conquered in terms of jihad. before which, they approached the kingdom and asked them to embrace islam peacefully or pay taxes. then if they disagreed, the muslims conquered them and only asked those non believers to pay taxes. so there wasn't killing and bloodshed unless they were neccessary.

christianity so pure and clear??? no way dude, if it was 'pure' and 'clean' why are there homesexuals running around?? and changing in the bible scripts by the pope eh??

i don't need to read about the account of solomon as his story is accurate enough in quran itself. i just wish allah had not promised noah that he would no longer destroy the non believers. he would have easily shown u numskulls the wrong turn in ur lives.

if bible was imitation of another book, u guys would have disintegrated in 100bc itself.

if u really want truth about islam, atttend conferences and learn it from islamic scholars, like zakir naikh, who won't let u down. u will have all ur doubts clarrified. if atleast u don't embrace islam u would atleast know that all the accusations against it were and those yet to come will be wrong.

[Tsigano]

Again you speak on Islamic opinion yet you do not present the facts. You say there is a verse in the quaran but what proof is this when it comes to fact. The quaran could say that the sky is green but it doesn't mean a thing. looking into facts and discovery will determine what colour the sky is. Then we test them again and again to comfirm they are right as even facts of science keep changing as new discoveries prove new things.
By trying to justify something even against the facts proves that Islam brainwashes its followers with self made facts.
Like I said the area that Mohammed grew up in had little in the way of recorded history and was riddled with pagan beliefs, so how can they claim to have such knowledge? It was the Jews who were the most acurate at recording history. This can be proved through discovered facts.

The film 'the da vinci code' is a fictional story so again this is not an acurate fact. The truth is that there is no real recorded history on Jesus at the time of His life so how can anyone make such claims.
The Catholic church was born out the back of the Roman empire who originally killed Christian believers, so how has this got anything to do with true Christianity. In fact if you read the Bible and look at the fundementals of true Christianity in it basic form, then Catholicism is actually condradictory in its docurines in many areas. If you study the history of Catholicism and how it was started then you'll see it was an adapted branch from Chrsitianity that impacted many but it is not Christianity as described in the book of acts and the church of catholicsm is as the doctorines covered in say Corinthians.
Many Catholics are true Christians as they read and prayer and follow the Bible. Catholicsm is just a label that people use. The Bible states that God does not use such labels within His church. The Bible says you will tell a person by their fruit produced. Mother Teressa did great works.
Perhaps you should look up Ewan Roberts doctorines and teaching with the 1904 Welsh Revival or David Wilkinson when he impacted the gangs of New York in the 1970s. Perhaps you should acknowledge the revival amongst the Gypsy people of the world or the Inuits of Canada or the Polonesians or the house church revival going on in China. These revivals are not funded by any big organisation nor are they done through force or invasion, rather through true honest love and example set by those whose lives are changing. That and helping those less fortunate than yourself and not just saying "my book says I should do this and that".
One of the only true accounts of Jesus is by 'Flavius Josephus'. He is not regarded by Christians as being a Christian writer as surely he would have been a disiple of Christ as he was present at the time. He was Jewish by birth yet he took Roman citizanship and was a scholar and writer basing his work on Jewish writings. Within some of his work he does make referance to Jesus.
Most proof of Jesus's existance is actually written before He was born and is in old Testament of the Jews. Within the Old testament it gives detailed accounts of His life and acomplishments and even give the day He will come
http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/ explain where it gives the year and the day can be worked out by the date of the Jewish passover etc.
The Old Testaments says that His life will seem be not glamourous and will seem worthless and appear to accomplish nothing yet after that day every nation of the Earth will come to know of His name and banners will be held up with His name on it. People will turn from there wrongful life and turn unite with God.
Examples of this are all across the globe and have been happening before Islam even existed. It all started happening after the time of Jesus' death as Christianity impacted the nations of the globe. Even the Roman empire was impacted which is where Catholicsm started. The pope however is not within the teaching of the Christian churchnor are many of their practices. If the Catholics put the Bible together (which is a debatable subject) then how come the Bible contradicts Cotholic doctorines? God must have had His hand in there somewhere, lol.
Homosexuality is not accepted in the Bible, as is having more than one wife. The book of Genesis says that woman is the helper of man and when they come together they make one. The rib that was taken from Adam was from Adam's side which is where a woman should be.
Like I said I am not raised or brainwashed with anything other than science and practical reality.
Like most people I understand right from wrong due to a conscience and the fact I have recieved hurt so I know how others will hurt from my actions.
I decide my verdict built on non bias reality and take all these facts into consideration.
When I started looking into religion it was from a supernatural encounter with a 'born again' Christian who had insight into areas of my life which he could never have known. He then gave me a prophecy which was then a week or so later also given to me by completely differant man (a Tamil pastor I met) who could never have met or known the previous man.
It is because of this I have an open mind to any religion in the first place.

[Tsigano]

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[miqsh]

islam determined how the rains occurred and the description of clouds in the ages of prophet muhammed PBUH. u guys developed everything now and flashing of eh? do u have any thoughts about looking into the real bible when the christians destroyed and catholics began to work on it? don't or u might not be able to face me again. do u have anything about the discovery of scientific facts before the field of science developed? the christians killed never had any facts as jesus as god. all they followed was his messages and not him as a god. the catholics must have the feelings of ruling the church. so they opposed the protestants and gained their high and mighty chair.
for ur information, the whole america is a slave to the catholic church. those bastards.


the jews are also related to us as they follow the prophet musa{moses}. they also converted the book given to him and made convienient rules for themselves. they are snitches and cowards who asked the help of muslims to fight of the byzantines and pagans. in turn they betrayed us to the pagans. assholes nothing else. hitler was right for once to kill those creatures.

and for goodness sake just don't call urself unbiased okay? u are no were near it. u seem to know the bible more than the quran.so u took the side of the major religion scared of having to face difficulties. the muslims shall finally have world of peace after the day of judgement is over - when catholic bastards, the other religions are put to test and slaughtered again and again.

remind me never to reply a persistent monkey like u as u are beyond the reach of even the scholars to get u back.

[Tsigano]

Again you do not present any real evidence. All what you say is what is taught you from your muslim overseers.
Nothing is developed from yourself on a non bias truth finding path.
All your facts come from what is written within the quaran yet you do not test what is written within the quaran through archeology and fact.
You have anger against the Jewish people yet are we not all God's people?
Should we not treat others with love as an example to the non believer?
Surely it is a pagan attitude to have hate?
I thought all the nice things come from the Father and not the destructive qualities of man.
You even admit that the Jews had information on Moses which dates back hundreds upon hundreds of years before any islamic written information on the man came into existance yet you call them liars. Do you ever hear a Jew with such hate for another race? Yes they do commit atrocities within the middle east which is a situation of attack followed by islamic / palestinian attack which then leads to Jewish attack which leads to Islamic / Palestinian attack ...and it goe on and on.
Will either of you ever learn the word 'forgiveness' or caste the other cheak? Does God really revel in such atrocities? I think not.
It is reasons like this that I cannot fault the Bible yet I can find fault with the Quaran. It is certain verses within the Quaran which blatently feed Jewish hatred and agression and any lie which says it isn't there is Islamic properganda.
You say I am blind yet have you ever questioned ot known any differant?
Did you ever seek the truth with a compassionate and open heart or do you hide within the walls of Islam for an identity condemning all other creations that don't comply to your personally taught beliefs?
He who is without sin throw the first stone for know I am in no position to condemn another human being. I believe it is right to stand up and state what is kind and loving and compassionate and what is obvoiusly fuelled by a demonic hatred. Being kind, loving and compassionate doesn't mean acting in a willy nilly nancy way which doesn't say boo to a goose but rather being strong morally and and truthful and sincere helping all those less fortunate than yourself. This is often costly and take a real man with real dedication and a real unselfseeking heart. This is the teaching of the Bible, not hate for another being. It is God who rewards all for their actions and that will be done on the day of judgement. Is this not the way of God? God does not want to see anyone hurt and he hates the way we hates the way we hurt each other. It takes a real man to stand up for others in a time of accepted aggression.
Jesus stood up against the religious teachers and the authorities not with anger or talk of rebellion but rather with talk of helping others and leading a compassionate life. And still the masses slaughtered Hima s it made them feel convicted of their own actions. I know I wouldn't want to walk into my own death knowing the very creations I love were going to kill me (I am talking about all mankind and not the Jews as we are all with sin. We must remeber that Y'shua / Jesus was a Jew)
You keep quoting what the quaran said but have you ever seriously read the new testament other than the bit that you teachers mis quote? I bet not.
I have read both Bible and Quaran plus looked into many other religious books and I did not do it because someone told me to do so. I also did not do it under the guidence and authority of another man. I did it for myself and I did it from an attitude where I belive in no God but scientific facts that I was taught from school.
You mention the catholic church yet you do not mention the church which is in the book of acts (1st book after the gospels)which gives account of the Church of Jesus Christ. This church has nothing to do with the Catholic church so how can they have put the book together?
The scriptures were and still are in circulation with nothing to do with the Catholic church. Infact the Catholic church has extra books within their Bible which the early Christians would not regard as the word of God. Interestingly the extra books of the Catholic church have condradictions in which none of the other books can be found to have. ie the Catholics say prayers for the dead due to their extra writings yet Jesus said to let the dead worry for themselves but rather care for the living.
You really should do you home work and stop running to your teachers to brainwash you, lol.
Again we should pray for one another with total love and devotion. If I am in trouble or mislead then you should treat me with love as a sign to show me and if I still turn your example away then this will be held account against me come the day of judgement.
The Bible says in the book of James that sin is started within the heart through temptation of the mind to the lusts and worldly pleasures of the flesh (including pride) one we chose to entertain these thought it leads to sin.

1 corinthians chapter 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.

3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, (V)distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

12For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.

16And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.

17If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

18But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.

19If they were all one member, where would the body be?

20But now there are many members, but one body.

21And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

22On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;

23and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,

24whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,

25so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.

28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

29All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

30All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

31But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

[miqsh]

don't u get it!!! it is no use telling facts out of the quran as it is all lies and bible is the truth.
have u any proof from the nature were jesus is accepted as the 'actual' god?? like the trees bowing and stuff. u have no other choice but to give in. can u tell if jesus is a god or not for sure. can u??? all are just scriptures, u have no way of confirming the basis of christianity. so since all the religion depend on factors were i am absolutely sure that it isn't the truth or explain the existence of god, i don't follow them. one true god, not a human for sure. jesus had a father didn't he. what is ur concept on it? did he appear out of the blue?? if a man is to be a god. then how is it possible that there won't be another extraordinary man to come into this world and create a new religion???

[Tsigano]

The biggest proof of Jesus being who He is, is not so much as in the accounts written on Him at the time but rather in the prophesies that were referrance to Him before He came. The fact that there is nothing else in the world that has caused such a big an impact in comparrison to the one which has been caused by His existance is also a worth while fact.
I will write a thread explaining the supernaturalness of the Bible and some of its unmistakable prophecies.
Evidently the whole Islam thing is also covered in the Bible.
It starts in the book of Genesis with the birth of Ishmael and the prophecy given and the relationship between him and his brother Isaac. It is al referance to the future coming of Judo-Christianity (God's version of Christianity and not man's corruption) and the coming of Islam which will have big hand in the last days.
This is also confirmed in Galations chapter 4 (which was still writen 500 or so years before Mohammed was born)

Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

[Tsigano]

Matthew chapter 24
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and [B]false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

[miqsh]

oh u can have all the prophecies u want. lets see the final ultimatum thats goin' to land on ur heads. shall we wrap up this discussion. as the religion followed in the world exists mostly from a "human being", there isn't a point in this debate. i believe ur prophesies would turn out right partly, because bible is a converted version of the real book.



and for the goodness sake tell me where is a hole in the quran??????

[miqsh]

so why did u accept christianity and not jainism, buddhism or judaism???? are there faults in their religion too??

[Tsigano]

oh u can have all the prophecies u want. lets see the final ultimatum thats goin' to land on ur heads. shall we wrap up this discussion. as the religion followed in the world exists mostly from a "human being", there isn't a point in this debate. i believe ur prophesies would turn out right partly, because bible is a converted version of the real book.



and for the goodness sake tell me where is a hole in the quran??????


The fact that the quaran has verses that are wicked and threatening to those that are non-believers is one thing to consider.
The fact that the quaran is anti-Jewish makes it no better than the crimes commited by the Nazis of wwii

verses like surah 47
47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
(Fa-itha laqeetumu allatheenakafaroo fadarba alrriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum fashuddoo alwathaqa fa-immamannan baAAdu wa-imma fidaan hatta tadaAAaalharbu awzaraha thalika walaw yashaoAllahu laintasara minhum walakinliyabluwa baAAdakum bibaAAdin waallatheenaqutiloo fee sabeeli Allahi falan yudilla aAAmalahumsayahdeehim wayuslihu balahum)

In addition to all this the bible came well before the quaran and there is so much evidence to back the authenticity of the Bible which in itself conradicts the lies of the quaran.

Much of what I am saying has already been covered and yet you keep repeating ground that has already been answered. It is common for muslims to be proven on all grounds and still they try to deny facts and even convince themselves that the facts are wrong in favour of verses from the quaran. This is all due to the brainwashing of the teachers. They fill their heads with so much properganda and make it a sin to allow them to look into anything that might prove the quaran wrong.
I still intend to start a thread that covers so of the amazing finds within the Bible.
Perhaps you should answer your last post from a muslim perspective and then I will comment.
The verse above which is from your so called 'holy book' is one perspective of the Islamic view of other religions is it not?
Please do not keep saying the Bible was copied from your book as the Bible was in existence well before Mohammed ever dreamed up Islam. Mohammed was a war leader was he not?

[Tsigano]

How is it that you would want to wrap this debate up considerring that you started it with slanderous Islamic properganda against the Bible?

True accurate prophecy is something to take into consideration as it is something that can't just be coincidental.

Thw quaran or the Islamic faith has and hasn't ever had any means of prophecy and never will. It has some writings on the end times but this is only a rewriting of material that was already covered in the Bible. Many modrn religious sects do this but none can come up with anything new.

If mohammed was the last prophet (even though there is no proof of any real ability to give prophecy) then perhaps you should read 'the happiest people on earth' by Demos Shakarian

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0912376147/026-9582580-0454001

In this book are examples of Christian prophecy that is still happening today. Yet again more facts that should be considered over what is the true belief and faith of God.

Perhaps it is you that should worry about the day of judgement? The Bible says this is God's worry and man should just concentrate of his own daily walk and the example he sets to others. A Christians responsiblilties are to show love and prayer for others well being and walk in the ways set by Jesus.
Can you find fault in the way Jesus walked? Please do not answer this with Islamic brainwashed properganda but rather with the actually example set in the Bible (the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John are all differant accounts of the life of Jesus and they all tell the same story), for it is the source we should judge not a misinterpreted made up oppinion. thankyou :)

[miqsh]

okay i give in that ur book is unfaulted. although it was 'divinely' according to u. just because the quran says about the negative fates of the non believers unlike the bible it makes it bad isn't it? so the bible has just refrained from any accusations against other religion to make it a goody goody. keep it up. analyize all the possible issues underlying it.

but the fact that i admit that islam has some severe actions on non believers is true. well if all the people of the world would target u and ur little country? civil wars and destruction befall u? then how are u to survive without fighting back?? similarily islam was threatened by the christians, jews and other pagans. i will show proof of it after some time. i am busy now.

and u haven't told me about why u didn't choose other religion, have u? the book of the jews are much older than that of the bible isn't it? why not accept it and not christianity. what are their drawbacks?

[miqsh]

"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age.


That the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)

"He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night."
(The Qur'an, 39:5)

The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.

those are some things out of the quran which wasn't present in the bible was it?

[Tsigano]

The best translation is...

21:33 It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all swim along, each in its rounded course.
Wahuwa allathee khalaqa allayla waalnnaharawaalshshamsa waalqamara kullun fee falakin yasbahoona

51:7 By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,
Waalssama-i thati alhubuki

39:5 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon: Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
Khalaqa alssamawati waal-ardabialhaqqi yukawwiru allayla AAala alnnahariwayukawwiru alnnahara AAala allayliwasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajreeli-ajalin musamman ala huwa alAAazeezu alghaffaru

So technically it is not exactly as you put. If we about a thousand or whatever years before we get....

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.

Job 26:7
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.

Some other verses to look up

Time, Space and Matter finite
Genesis 1: 1 ,
1 Timothy 1: 9,
Titus 1: 2

Expanding Universe
Psalm 104 : 1-2

Stars cannot be numbered
Jeremiah 3: 22

The Earth is a sphere
Isaiah 40: 22

The Earth hangs on nothing
Job 26: 7




Atomic structure
Hebrews 11: 3

1st Law of Thermodynamics
Genesis 2: 2-3,
Hebrews 4: 3-4,
Nehemiah 9: 6

2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Psalm 103,
Isaiah 51: 6,
Matthew 24: 35


Oceanic Currents
Psalm 8: 8,
Isaiah 43: 16

Mountains on the Ocean Floor
Jonah 2: 5-6

The Jet Stream
Ecclesiastes 1: 6-7


Evaporation of Water
Job 26: 8,
Ecclesiastes 1: 6-7,
Amos 9: 6

Source of River Water
Ecclesiastes 1: 6-7

Fresh-Water Springs in the Sea
Job 38: 16


Dinosaurs
Job 40: 41,
Psalms 74: 14

Nuclear Physics
2 Peter 3: 10

Importance of blood in life process
Leviticus 17: 11


I still intend to present with a new thread based on some of the supernatural find on the Bible packed with facts which anyone will be able to see with their own eyes.
I may have to wait until the weekend as I am pushed for time due to working hard to get a job finished.

Islam having severe actions on non believers is no small thing. Whats more is they are a direct instruction for the reader which for me is fact alone not to accept the Quaran as being a Holy book for the Great Creator of the Universe. The idea seems uncomprehensible.


A true Christian is someone who walks in the teaching and ways of Christ. Did Jesus ever threaten anyone or was His teaching condradictory to this?

If a Christian is threatening in a violent way then how is it possibly that he actually is a Christian? Does not the teachings of the Bible teach against this?

[miqsh]

yes jesus did not retort to any violent measures. but he did not ask the people to think of him as a god. believe it or not, all the miracles u saw were with the help of allah. the work of the satan has succeeded in conquering the minds of the christians.

the reason why the non believers are to be treated unfairly is because the non believers pray and bow to idols which is the most untolerable. allah would forgive all the sins, even adultery. but bowing to idols and associating others with him is unforgivable to him.

[miqsh]

oh all though the meaning might be translated differently they mean the same don't they??

[Tsigano]

The translation that i put is an acurate translation. I personally would not say that 'rounded course' & 'numerous paths' do not mean 'orbit'. so the answer to your question is a personal no.
Still the only actual proof that you resent is what is written in the quaran and what is brainwashed into you from your teachers.
Again I state that proof in history, archeology and logic does nothing to support the Islamic claims other than it is a barbaric oppressing religion that brands non believers convincing and brainwashing the believers of Islam (meaning 'submit') into thinking that every non believer is the enemy and the product of satan. yet it makes excuse for all those that carry out horrific acts in the name of 'Allah'.
Mohammed did some very questionable things as covered before. Perhaps you should delve deeper into the facts based on actual history and events rather than the teachings and properganda based on that of your seers.

:) 1 Corinthians 2:
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. :)

[Tsigano]

yes jesus did not retort to any violent measures. but he did not ask the people to think of him as a god. believe it or not, all the miracles u saw were with the help of allah. the work of the satan has succeeded in conquering the minds of the christians.

the reason why the non believers are to be treated unfairly is because the non believers pray and bow to idols which is the most untolerable. allah would forgive all the sins, even adultery. but bowing to idols and associating others with him is unforgivable to him.

Interestingly the Quaran tells you to treat the non believer harshely, yet the Bible tells you to 'love your enemy'.
I think this alone somes up the point I'm making.
God loves the world but satan destroys it. What category does 'treat the non believer harshely' fall into?
May God bless you :D May your day be special. May your heart be touched with a piece of kindness for surely God made us to be compassionate and understanding as opposed to harsh and cruel to one another.

[miqsh]

are u telling me that ur translation is more accurate than mine. u are a person whose language isn't arabic. so u think that u are right about ur conversion??? :D ha what makes u confident in sure that the translation u got there is correct??? hmph brainless. :rolleyes:

and for harsh treatment bible tells u to love ur enemies, then why are u people torturing muslims. yes christianity hates muslims why??? the muslims in india are peaceful with their hindu brothers and other religions. don't u wonder why only america has to pay the forfeit of the peace of the muslims that they had to face some bad experiences with osama bin laden??? what about the war in iraq??? what was the reason?? the main reason is to bring down islam. :rolleyes:

u guys are just satans in disguise who "love" their enemies but actually hate them.

so do u think that the bible is more than just a book in showcase or it is something to be followed. u just can't talk about love okay. so just shut ur trap about it okay.

[Tsigano]

Hi Miqsh :)

The translation is from a Muslim interlinear translation and is with full intention as acurate as possible. beneath the verse pasted I have pasted the Arabic pronounciation.

Do you yourself speak Arabic? I assume you speak an India language as your mother tongue and am curious as to how much Arabic you yourself know. I know a few people who are good scholars with Arabic who deal in that part of the word and I myself love to learn differant languages. Perhaps you could help me :) ? I know as common knowledge that Arabic developed from Aramaic and is also very similar to Hebrew and that it is obviously a Semitic language. Example of words like Arabic 'salaam' being like Hebrew 'Shalom'. Salaam is now used further afield to lands such as India due to the spread of Islam.

I myself have never seen or known how it is possible for a Christian to torture anyone. The idea seems rediculas, lol. For the answer to this we must understand what a Christian actually is. Someone can not just say "I'm a Christian" as technically this is not enough and is not what the word Christian actually means. A Christian and the true meaning of the word is a person that walks and acts within the teachings and examples of Christ. They believe that Jesus was the true Messiah and that He died on the cross at Calvery for the sins of mankind as a final blood payment for sin which was the payment so that through true and honest total repentance to God they will recieve Baptism of the Holy Spirit which helps, strengthens and guides them in their new life walking with God. Sin seperates the seeing and recieving of the Holy Spirit which is why the majority of the wword can acknowledge His presence (the Holy Spirit is a 'He' and not an 'it' as He is part of the trinity of God) The Holy Spirit will never contradict any of the teachings of Christ Jesus but will strengthen you within your walk in God's way. Through the baptism of The Holy Spirit there are gifts of talking in tongues, prophesy, desernment of spirits etc etc

1 Corinthians 1
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Corinthians 12
Spiritual Gifts
1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

So no please don't be mistaken when someone say a Christian commits such crimes. Many claim to be Christian out of heritage as they live in a so called Christian country. Christianity is a personal relationship and belief and not just a title. :D

Please keep your cool ;) Patience takes perseverance. It is Muslims who usually attack Christians. In fact Christian are treated very badly and are oppressed in most Muslim countries. There are many accounts of horrific acts towards Christians in the name of Allah. Its nice to see that after all these years that Turkey have now finally acknowledged the horrificness of their actions towards the Armenians at the turn of the 1900s. The case where they killed thousands of innocent lives including women and children.
They are not to be blamed on religious grounds as they were acting out the quaran. I do question the intention of the quaran however.

We are all to stand before the alter of God one day, are we not? I'm sure you must agree that it is Him who will decide our fate.

God Bless and Salaam

[miqsh]

so does that muslim translator accuse prophet as such and such??? find it out man.
show me a place that has put him in the bad light. their is an explanation to it, i am sure. ;)

americans are causing havoc in saudhi arabia, did u know that? plundering the saudhis in a formal way. what is the reason that the americans had to start a war in iraq?? :rolleyes:

yeah god shall determine our fate. i hope that i was right and u hope that urs is right. no problems with me. individual's choice on this.

PS: those sites which started this debate wasn't authentically proved by bukhari or anyother confirmation societies. so the facts they have come up with are false.

like the saying says, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if a person is determined to do some thing they will try their best to do it. so i don't blame u. it is just human tendency. :)

[Tsigano]

God Bless you Miqsh :)

I will pray that the real God blesses and enlightens you, and please pray for me that the real God blesses and enlightens me. That way we can't be wrong.

Take care.
Salaam and Shalom.

[miqsh]

thanx. blessings on u too. hope is my only medicine to good polytheists.

[Tsigano]

Hi Miqsh :)

I had to look up 'polythiest' though I had an idea what it meant, :o lol.

Many people mistake Christianity to be polythiestic, but infact this is not the case.
For many it is hard to get their head around the trinity of God. the terms 'Father, Son & Holy Spirit confuse many but its not actually that hard to understand.

It is exactly the same as the trinity of man. Every human has a trinity, soul, spirit & body. The body is a vessel, the soul is eternal and the spirit is like feelings and emotions etc. You can feel something in your spirit and at the same time think with your brain. The soul is existant without the body yet we have a body to live in. A man can change his spirit yet the soul remains the same. When a man is 'born again' it is his spirit that is being made new. when a man dies his body rots but his soul sleeps and it is by his spirit that he will be judged. if the man has an evil spirit full of anger and lust then it is God that he will have to answer to. In Christianity it is through God's Spirit also being the Spirit shown through Jesus that we are made new. It is by the Spirit of God that Jesus was born, not man.

From the Father comes the Son and it is through the Spirit.

If God was there before all form, material and images then how can anyone make an image of God? However if God is to exist with man and creation then we need the Son. All are part of one, but each is His own seperate identity.


Jesus was there from the beginning but not in human form. He did not have the limitations of man like He had whilst being born to man nor did He have the name Jesus (Yeshua / Jeshua). He was only born to man to perform what man couldn't do himself, live the perfect life with no rewards but die as a sacrifice for all. He corrected what Adam put wrong. He became the second Adam. War in heaven is like a war in a court room. Satan accuses man night and day saying man willingly does this and man willingly does that. Jesus died to perform the ultimate act making satan out to be a liar. Come the day of judgement it is this act along with the testimony of the saints that will condemn satan and his angels to eternal hell.

John 1:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

The Word of Life
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Walking in the light
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

[Tsigano]

Hopefully this thread has come to an end. :D

I think the main thing is that the title of the thread is not acurate.

God Bless to all :) :) :)

[India1989]

ok let me come into this discussion. let me tell few things.

Indians are always worrying about what's going on in the world. Why did America war Iraq, why did US war Afghanistan, why did Soviet break up, why did Bush do this, why did Osama didn't have his lunch, why did Saddam went underground, why did Bush cry, why did Saddam cry and etc etc.

You guys rarely ponder that why are we arguing about this. What will we get by arguing about this.

oh well religions are religions, there preaching are their own. But one cannot agree that all the followers of certain religion are following it properly. Every religion has something which someone might not like. Every religion has certain followers which will spread bad name of it.

K before you guys call me discriminatory let me start with my own religion Hinduism.

There was sati in our religion, why? who did this? I don't know but it was a major flaw of our religion. Was it there from before? No. Who started this? Some fanatics but i don't know who.

caste system - i think everyone knows about it.

lets go to some other religion.
Christianity perhaps.

Again there has been example of US warring Iraq but is Christianity warring Iraq. I don't think so? US is warring iraq. So why are we shouting Christianity. Well see US president is Christian and US is majority christian and so we are blaming Christian. Hitler was Christian. So few followers are there who bring bad name to CHristianity but i am sure that the religion doesn't ask Christians that you should always war.

Now lets move to Islam.
Islam is a religion which preaches peace and many things. I don't know much. Jihad is there were all muslims unite to fight against there enemy. Ok i understand. THat's a good thing that you guys unite. But can anyone for heaven's sake tell me that why is Pakistan and Bangladesh calling a Jihad war against India. WHY? What in the world did we do to them? Can anyone answer this to me. Look at those suicide bombers who kill innocent people in the name of religion. They bring bad name to the religion.

But does Islam preaches suicide killing or killing of innocent people. I don't think so. And the answer is no.

So stop accusing each other's religion. Look at your religion and find the bad points. Think how does this bad point come up. And then look at other's religion in the same damn way.

major fact. In india all religions are living in harmony together. And if you ask me which religion i hate. then here's my answer.

I don't hate any religion. I hate anyone who will go against India, no matter how much in a bad shape or bad is India. And i will be there to hunt that person down.

My first enemy.

My biology teacher. God curse her. May god from all religion bury her alive. Please. I pray to all religion. My god!!!!!!

[miqsh]

well people do tend to get carried away okay. here it was a bit long that is all. so what are u howling about now?? cool it. the fact that muslims are being tortured is the reality. oh, it is like indians being the prey of the developed countries for some reason. so when compared to the condition of the indians can u tell me, how the position of the muslims are today?? don't compare countries like pakistan which doesn't deserve to be a muslim country.

oh and the biology teacher is a hag allright.

[India1989]

k i don't quite get your question. Are you asking me to compare Muslims in India to other religions in India or muslims in India and muslims in other countries or muslims in all over the world against others.

If you ask me about muslims in India with other religions then all i have to say is onething. Muslims are treated no less then other religions. If you want examples i will give you.

There is no reason to compare Muslims in India with Muslims in Saudi Arabia cause situation is way different in there. They are rich and hence they have good facilities.

But miqsh let me remind you that India doesn't only have muslims and Hindus. there are more then 14 religions. Each of them has to have equal space and equality. Thus this kind of equality only India has.

In Saudi Arabia only Muslims can get citizenship and not others.
In western countries like US or Canada there have not been any PM or President or Defence minister of different religion or proper representation.

In that case India is the place where people of all religions live in harmony.

[miqsh]

u are with the indians always. forget about that. i am telling about the general condition throughout the world.

and any one who lived in saudhi can get the citizenship. don't get the wrong ideas or facts.

in india, the harmony would continue for sometime but the way this is going, i don't think that is going to last very long. so u won't be playing the pipe for a long time.

[India1989]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia

Read the first paragraph properly. Don't ask me to get the facts right. Get your facts right first. I have said this many times and i will say this a lot of times more then when i say something seriously, i don't say that thing without prove.

And i was always with Indians, I will always be with Indians and I am always with Indians. I am Indian and i will always be with India. Religion is not more important to me then my country. I think all other Indians should have same kinda thinking.
And what are people gonna do about it. CAn anyone stop me from talking about India. No one can.

In India this harmony has lasted for 58 years. It will last longer. If people like you are not confident then this is never gonna happen. But if you are and are motivated in maintaining unity then no one can stop you.

And as for me, i don't know whether i will be playing pipe for long time or not but I know India will be playing with all other nations in a short time. So don't underestimate India being an Indian miqsh.

Remember miqsh without knowing never say that others are wrong. Get yourself right first.

Only muslims in Saudi can get citizenship. THey are conservative and i have nothing against it. But you can't change the fact that they are islamic country and not secular as many other countries.

[miqsh]

well getting citizenship there hasn't much of benefits. and foreign muslims are not also allowed to have the same benefits as that of saudhis. only we have slight decrease in the medical bills. u shoudn't be here if u are that and that about india and nothing towards canada. saudhi is secular enough to allow this people to work in their country and develop themselves to the maximum they can. there isn't a discrimination in that.
whereas there are many places in india where only money speaks. i said a lot not all of them so don't tell examples like that of abdul kalam and others. look at the politicians, how many of them are really qualifed and educated to work according to their posts eh? how many doctors and engineers get their job for their qualification? money. that is what is needed to get a job in middle and higher qualifications. i had an uncle, who was really qualified in mechanical engineering, he knows of a person who were less qualified than him and got the top job before him because of money. then my cousin who got admission with difficulty after getting 98% in her final courses because everyone got in the college with the help of money. what more do u want?

[India1989]

Who are you to tell me where i should be? Who are you? I am in CAnada doesn't mean that I am gonna stay in Canada. I am not like you. I don't complain about my country. If I had to I can complain about every country. I look at good points of India always cause i know that people always look at bad points of India just cause it is India.

After you have come to Canada what do you think of yourself. You think yourself to be inferior to Indians or you think Saudi or Canada is a notch above country then India. If you said it was USA then i will believe what look at what type of countries you have lived in outside of India. Don't teach me secularism.

Saudi need people so they are tolerating different types of people. If they were really secular then they would've given citizenship to all of them.

Talking about money, money is important everywhere. In Mumbai its no money. Its skills. In India its not always money. Its skills. In the Indian cricket team there are many players who were poor before joining the team.

And miqsh please don't tell me stories about universities in India. They don't take people looking at how much money they have. Don't tell me that story. I know a lot about corruption in India too. All they look is at your marks.

Maybe in some jobs they do but that's really miniscule.

Stop lieing for god's sake miqsh. Give me facts and proves like i give you. Can you do that? NO?

People tell about corruption at minister level or police level but no one finds corruption at college or university level. So what are you trying to say? THat only you are qualified and rest of the billion people got in just cause they had money. You didn't get in doesn't mean that other's can't get in.

You are always against India. I don't know why? Live in other countries and talk good things about other countries. I don't care. India doesn't need people like you or me. We need India. You have no gratitude towards your country.

[miqsh]

did u know that education is a means of business in india. for tution fees for a year they ask for a lakh or so. just for the advance. what is that for? they don't give half of it to the right officials so it is partly gone to waste. it is minuscle eh? corruption is widespread in india. defend it. i don't care. is there one day when there isn't a case of corruption like bribe and stuff. one day. humph i bet u can't. well there are other reasons why india is secular too, if india wasn't a secular country, then there wouldn't be a democracy, no ruling parties and stuff, the country would plunge into turmoil and chaos, untill a communist party is formed. why is brain drain in india a big problem eh? hallf of them is even after continuous studying, one cannot get into university or college. this only possible if they pay lots of money for a seat. it is lucky there are lots of universities and colleges in india or all of the skilled labourers would have left india without support. so what is ur problem can't u see these problems?? can't agree that there are some serious issues on india. if i was against india and the countries i don't like, then why am i not going for pakistan like this. so i tell these because india has to look into this problems too. any negative issue and this guy gets pissed off and dosen't get the main point of my facts. just leave it. u r unreasonable when it is regarding india. not a bad point but a bad influence on curious people to know all the problems in india.

[India1989]

I know all those negative points in India but my point was that why did you ask me that why am i always talking about India? and why did you say that India will go down the pipe?

I never said that there's no corruption in India. I got pissed off because you asked me that why i always talked about India.

Maybe in some places they ask for tuition fee but not lakh a year.

300 rupees per month doesn't amount to lakh a year.

school fee of 2000 rupees will amount to 24000 rupees a year from one student. THis money was used to provide us with electricity in school so that we didn't die of heat during summer and also provided us with water, computers, sport equipments, examination papers, teacher's fee.

You only think about yourself. I am not saying you. I am saying all the people. They don't think that what is the salary of hte teachers. They barely get 2000 rupees per month. And people complain about high school salary.

India is corrupted and that doens't mean that we should run away from there and come to a foreign country and forget about India. It doesn't mean that we can't go back there and help the situation out there. Maybe 20% are corrupt but 80% is not.

If 80% was corrupt then India woudln't be India now. It would a living hell. These 20% Indians are the Indians sitting at top position which gives order and stuff. Corruption is not only in India. It is all over the world. The difference is that corruption is a bit more in India.

India will last long. It became secular country not because it will get destroyed. If India wasn't a secular country then in India people couldn't practice different religion freely. But India was secular country cause our constitution makers knew that there are different religions in India and they are also humans and should be treated at par with other religions and can practice their religion in harmony. That's the reason.

[miqsh]

there are some cases of corruption that isn't taken into concern or not known to everyone. that could make the stats from 20% to 30%. u started to compare the secularism in india and that of the world. i said i didn't need any info on india about that because i know it already. so i asked u to leave india out of this. :( being in an indian forum, am i to talk only on india and its issues?? can't i get out of this shell and know and get to know and have my views on other countries?? about their policies, ideas and stuff?? in a way, u are restricting my freedom as an indian to tell that there are somethings to be looked at. maybe i have to look into other forums where there are more privileges than the ones these offer. :(

as for the tution fees in india there are two parts - one to be paid before joining the college/university and one to be paid monthly. now my cousin has to pay up, as far as i know, 2.5 lakhs as 'donation' - the one to be paid before joining the university. this is done to every student graduating from the schools to college or university. this donation is supposed to be for all the electricity, and other stuff as u mentioned. if there were about thousand students admitted into the college, then the authorities would have more money {1000 crores}to burn than to use for the actual purposes. isn't this called a bribery or a "formal blackmail"- if they don't pay up then, they can't enter the university/college. this happens in andhra pradesh, kerala and tamil nadu. then for the feee to be paid monthly, there would atleast have to pay up Rs.9000 per month at an average. what is this for after getting the donations before entering the college/university??? :)

so do u still think corruption is not widespread in india?? please know that this might have been true in west bengal, but if u had just studied in south india for ur higher studies and so on then u would agree with me. show me atleast one article where it says the donations collected in south india before entering the college/university is really used efficiently for the students. that's it then i would give in that india is less corrupt than it seems.

[India1989]

First miqsh show me that you have to donate 2.5 lakh to the university. STOP LIEING miqsh. First you said it was a lakh and now you said it is 2.5 lakh.

If it is a private university then ofcourse you have to pay that much.

In CAnada also you have to pay $70,000 in university.

that is 28 lakh rupees.

Why don't you call this a corruption? What is the university gonna do with 28 lakh rupees.

Just cause you have to pay 10 times less then that in India means that it is corrupted. k 28 lakh is the total amount of tution fee you need. then i heard that sometimes between the year you have to spend 5000 dollars more. so overall 75000 dollars or 30 lakhs. So buddy university is different. You basically need more money in university. They don't just teach you. YOu heard of practical work. Hopefully you heard of it, cause in university you work with real machines and animals which they have to pay for. So that's not corruption.

Do you know that if you go to Presidency university in Kolkata then you only have to pay Rs 800 per month. But still because you have to pay in India, it is a corrupted country. No matter how much you pay in Canada, Canada won't be corrupt.

Yeah Canada takes anywhere from 30% tax to 60% tax. India takes way less. But still India is corrupted and CAnada is not.

K maybe i talk about India but you shall not stop ME from talking about India. If you want to talk about anything else go ahead. There are many threads on sex and porn in this forum. Go chat over there. I don't care. I won't stop you.

All i wanted to ask that what was your question. Then you said about the freedom of muslims.

I asked where, is it in moon, mars, jupiter, your house, India or the world.
But i thought that i should give an answer and as a starter i gave the answer in India. Then you burst open and started accusing me of corruption, bribery and conspiracy. Now tell me what shall i do.

Muslims in the world also have freedom. USA and stuff are allies of muslim countries of Pakistan and stuff against India. If no international force interrupted us then there wouldn've been no Pakistan. In Canada everyone knows about Muslims and thier details. You guys have ID holidays and stuff. But here people struggle to pronounce the word Hindu. We are marked absent if we don't come to school on Diwali but you guys are not.

You guys already have freedom. About war, it was Osama who started it. Osama attacked US and don't deny the fact just because he's muslim. I know that he is a bad guy and muslims shouldn't be blamed for this. But that doesn't mean that you guys will say that you don't get any freedom. Its just that you guys(i mean asians) are very sentimental and take everything as an offence.

see agree the fact. Muslims are more widespread and have as much freedom as any other religion in this world.

See another point. You guys are blaming about CHristians destroying your peace. But what about Muslims destroying other people's peace in other countries. Do you know how Taliban killed Afghans. Do you know that in Iraq Muslims slaughtered Christians.

K you maybe telling that Hindus did wrong too. I agree. You are right. Hindus also did wrong. They also did riots but in Gujarat both of them fought. IN Iraq it was only muslims. In Kashmir muslims killed and sent out all Kashmiri Hindu pandits out of Kashmir.

So i am trying to say that every religion has done something wrong. This doesn't mean that particular religion is bad which Christians, Muslims are trying to do.

PS. I DON'T MEAN TO OFFEND ANY RELIGION. I AM ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED AND I AM JUST TELLING THE SITUATION OF DIFFERENT RELIGION AND NO BLAMING ANY RELIGION. PEACE

[miqsh]

do we have to pay that much money to the canadian university before entering it?? that is a lot. also i meant only for india i never wanted to care about other countries. well as u said, india is less corrupt when compared to canadians. they are committing daylight robbery by having 15% {not 30 or 60%} tax. no problem, i will no longer think about or point out my mistakes. u don't want me to bother with india so be it. less trouble by not bothering, simple i should have seen this before. atleast it is not too late. i will look elsewhere.

even if it was a private college, can they also take 2.5 lakhs?? { this a true figure as i wasn't sure the first time} that is still bad. do u need articles to prove it, when i have a witness itself??

as for Osama, he was a scruplous fellow alright. but do u spy on bush and his associates all ur life? neither do i. but still i am aware of something which u are unaware of - the problems Bush caused in saudhi arabia by bringing in ARAMCO. this was totally unfair on the americans part to rob the saudhi's of their wealth and land and oil. so osama started his campaign. why didn't Bill Clinton face any problems with the him?? because he didn't offend osama in anyway.

and the jihad part which Osama led people was for the right cause. no wrong intention carried by him during that time.

u are with india and always be with india. be with it, it isn't bad but i meant for the muslims all over the world except that country u are about -india.

what did the USA join pakistan eh?? that is the only case i assume, because they don't want india to pose a threat to them. so they settled their differences aside and had to pair up with the pakis.

have u seen any attendance sheets that have excused the muslims during their ramadan holidays??

talk about touching one's nerve, u are always touchy and sensitive if india had been criticized. so u think others have lost their nuts.

in iraq even muslims were killed not any particular religion, because of the insurgents in iraq.

i will try to limit my facts on india and discuss in indian debates. i will take part in only those which are related to other asian or foreign countries. since there are too many 'touchy' indians to be reasoned with. i am not a coward, i am just absolutely sick on how u regard india as. u will only meet me on the debates on other countries. so goodbye.

[India1989]

k miqsh. Debates on other countries. I will meet there too and watch how i tell you things you never knew before with proof. You might know more then me but you are speaking in such a way that you are trying to say that i know nothing. YOu always start things but i will end things. ANytime you want to debate on other topics i am there.

Come what do you want to debate on. You are justifying Osama. I don't think he did a right thing calling jihad.

What is jihad. Killing innocent people. If that is jihad he is wrong. Does he has guts to come in front of US forces and fight them. Does he??? He does not have that courage. All he does is hide like a pussy and kill innocent people. Its jihad eh!! Killing innocent people. I will go on a rampage in Saudi and call it jihad. Lets see what you do.

I am not saying that USA is right. but that doesn't mean that you blame the whole religion.

And I am sick on how you always regard other countries as. Just cause i don't say anything doesn't mean that I am coward or soft. You talk hard with me i get back at you superhard. Stop screaming. Debate nicely. Don't shout. By shouting you don't justify anything.

ANd you are a coward. You are running away from debating on India just cause you can't prove anything on India.

It might be true that you have to pay 2.5 lakhs. It might be true that India is corrupt. So what are you trying to say. CAnada, USA, Saudi, Pakistan is the country of gods.

Listen miqsh i don't want another commotion. I don't know what you don't understand. IN MY LAST POST I CLEARLY TOLD YOU THAT LETS START DEBATE ON OTHER COUNTRIES AND YOU BACKFIRED ME AGAIN BY SAYING STUPID STUFFS LIKE THE WAY I REGARD INDIA.

What do you regard India as?

i don't regard India as a perfect country. I only say that we just can't sit here and blame.

man other countries can work. Saudi is developed. It will work and so will USA. But if we don't do anything it will be hard for India to work. We all care about other countries but we rarely care about our countries. See miqsh as a friend i am saying that don't forget your country no matter how much in a bad condition your country is.

man you are living in other countries. You always are discussing about other countries. In school, with your other friends , do you discuss about India? No. You will have zillions of chances to discuss about other countries. THink that in your life how many times have you discussed about India and other countries. YOu will get the answer.

If you want to discuss about other countries still then i am ready. Lets discuss about Pakistan and any other countries, i don't mind. go ahead.

and yeah 70k dollars minimum not including staying in the campus fee. be prepared for it. 30 lakhs. Here for being a doctor you have to study for 10 years and in India they make you a world class doctor in 6 years.

[miqsh]

i don't know what the real purpose about osama's behaviour from himself, but what about the innocent lives USA has taken in Iraq and those in afganistan, and the plans they have for Iran and Saudhi arabia?? is that acceptable. maybe i forgot to mention it but osama did for all the people who died in the war against iraq and do u have any idea how many are still dying when we speak, in iraq?? as people judged islam by osama's actions, maybe i should judge america by it's actions too don't u think so that by doing that it would be fair too.

[India1989]

Well USA may have judged Islam by Osama's actions and maybe they have cancelled out. But you seem to forget that osama has done a lot of damage then that thing. What about the innocent lives lost in Kashmir by Osama's actions. Did India kill any of the innocent Pakistanis or other people or did India judge islam or is India killing all the muslim people because of Osama's actions in India. NO. then why is Osama harming innocent Indians. I don't care what you say to defend osama they are killing our people. I don't care whether people are dying in Iraq or Iran or US. I care that people are dying in India.

USA has nothing in plans for Saudi Arabia. It is proven. There has been rumours. USA depends on Saudi.

Go ask Osama that why is he killing those innocent Indians. Why is Osama using foul language against Hindus. Why did he say that we suppress other people and we are the enemy of Islam. You care about Osama but i care about Osama's death. Your and mine's idea might not match but i dont' care.

I want osama alone in front of me. Swear to god i will kill him. Swear to god he can't fight for shit.
He's not a muslim. WHy did Osama did Taliban and killed your own muslim brothers in Afghanistan. USA went to free Afghanistan from Taliban rule who were killing all the people over there. You don't say anything about that. He's not fighting for Islam. He's a phsyco guy. So if Osama kills innocent people in India and India attacks pakistan then are you gonna blame India or Osama? Who attacked first and who started this first. It was Osama then USA retailiated.

Osama should die. Osama if you reading this post try and find me. You boost about people not finding you. Lets see if you find me and if you have the courage to fight me alone front to front and not like a coward. Watch what i do to you and your damn family.

[miqsh]

I don't care whether people are dying in Iraq or Iran or US. I care that people are dying in India.

USA has nothing in plans for Saudi Arabia. It is proven. There has been rumours. USA depends on Saudi.

Go ask Osama that why is he killing those innocent Indians. Why is Osama using foul language against Hindus. Why did he say that we suppress other people and we are the enemy of Islam. You care about Osama but i care about Osama's death. Your and mine's idea might not match but i dont' care.


don't tell me that u are not caring about lives of other people who have died like indians, are u heartless??

USA doesn't depend on saudhi arabia, they made saudhis their 'slaves' and demand oil in return for some useless trade.

i am not aware of osama's attitude towards hindus, if there is something like that can i see some thing that says so, i can't really search for it

[India1989]

don't disagree with me miqsh. You know very well that Osama is against India and specially Hindus. Why are you backing Osama. Stop backing him.

I know you didn't find anything.

If you start supporting osama then i will talk shit too. you know very well what he's upto. every country in middle east except for few are upto destroy India. Its good that iraq was destroyed. Thank god.

USA did the right thing. India has to do the same thing too.

You seem to care about other countries more then India.

Yes i am heartless if you think so. I don't care about other people when my own people are dying. Did u care when innocent people died in 9/11 and london blasts.

AND YEAH OSAMA STARTED IT FIRST. Osama should die. Stop supporting him. Osama wants to destroy India. ANyone who supports him should die too.

I am ashamed of you miqsh. YOu always support India's enemy. You have always spoken for them. As a result i will never tolerate any country against us. Be it Saudi Arabia. They will be punished too if they do anything against India. To me everything is India. India!! India!! India!!.

USA has never made Saudi their slaves. You seem to support them more just cause they are muslims.

Even some of them call Indian muslims the enemy of Islam.

PLEASE REPLY TO MY QUESTION. DID YOU KNOW THAT WHO KILLED MUSLIMS IN AFGHANISTAN. IT WAS TALIBAN MADE BY OSAMA.

[Tsigano]

Osama also was and probually still is behind alot of the horrific situation that has been happening in the Sudan.

I was watching a documentry on the horrificness of the sitution out there and Osama's name often came up.

Children and innocent people were starving and dieing and Osama's backed people were stopping the aid workers from supplying the grain etc.
It was tearfull to watch the live footage.

All in the name of jihad. :(

[miqsh]

okay i agree that osama was a very very very very very bad man. he had no tolerance. he had no concern for others lives like u. the way u said that iraq deserved to be destroyed shows that u aren't at all secular as u claim. how is it that when america ravaged iraq that u don't want something like that to happen to india eh?? have u heard about revenge?? well he only hurt america after he destroyed iraq. why are u suporting bush and his associates?? u are not a person that will see the light. what if he was portrayed in the bad limelight?? u always believe what is there in the TV and newspapers eh?? go ahead they are not what u would say the eyes of the world? they are the ears of the world. personally they claim that osama was responsible for the lives of the americans and others but there could be other ways that USA was not playing fair and created bullshit. :rolleyes:

just because osama used the talibans doesn't count as talibans created by osama. i won't ask a proof because it is a waste to give a look into the media when they are absolutely false. :)

u ask me if i was sorry for the americans and the english. i was sorry for them. but how can u think about such a question when u aren't caring about the lives of the people eh?? talking about lives... humph... u are too much about india and nothing else u are nothing but a short fat fundamentalist. :mad:

as for the Usa making slaves of saudhi's- have u been in saudhi and have witnessed any of the real lives of the saudhis?? well i have. so just shut up okay? :rolleyes:

i think what osama thinks about the fate of india is very logical because there are too many fundamentalists like u in india to be counted that they will meet their fate like this. firstly regard innocent lives of all the people precious then u think about matters such as this.

oh and being ashamed about me no problem.

don't disagree with me miqsh. You know very well that Osama is against India and specially Hindus. Why are you backing Osama. Stop backing him.

I know you didn't find anything.

If you start supporting osama then i will talk shit too. you know very well what he's upto. every country in middle east except for few are upto destroy India. Its good that iraq was destroyed. Thank god.

USA did the right thing. India has to do the same thing too.

You seem to care about other countries more then India.

Yes i am heartless if you think so. I don't care about other people when my own people are dying. Did u care when innocent people died in 9/11 and london blasts.

AND YEAH OSAMA STARTED IT FIRST. Osama should die. Stop supporting him. Osama wants to destroy India. ANyone who supports him should die too.

I am ashamed of you miqsh. YOu always support India's enemy. You have always spoken for them. As a result i will never tolerate any country against us. Be it Saudi Arabia. They will be punished too if they do anything against India. To me everything is India. India!! India!! India!!.

USA has never made Saudi their slaves. You seem to support them more just cause they are muslims.

Even some of them call Indian muslims the enemy of Islam.

PLEASE REPLY TO MY QUESTION. DID YOU KNOW THAT WHO KILLED MUSLIMS IN AFGHANISTAN. IT WAS TALIBAN MADE BY OSAMA.

[miqsh]

Osama also was and probually still is behind alot of the horrific situation that has been happening in the Sudan.

I was watching a documentry on the horrificness of the sitution out there and Osama's name often came up.

Children and innocent people were starving and dieing and Osama's backed people were stopping the aid workers from supplying the grain etc.
It was tearfull to watch the live footage.

All in the name of jihad. :(


as for u, u just be in that small cave of christianity okay?? don't come out for anything useless

[Tsigano]

Oh dear :(

Nothing like facing the facts. I'd like to deny the documentry as fiction, but that would be silly.
A book that tells its followers to "strike the neck of the unbeliever" in my eyes raises question.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Please be a little less agressive and be a tab bit pleasant. Thanlyou :D

[India1989]

as for u, u just be in that small cave of christianity okay?? don't come out for anything useless

this kind of talks proves that you are big fat fundamentalists too. So shut up now. You only care about yourself and no one others and you care about that f****** osama.

I said that i don't care about the life in Iraq and stuff just because of you. Its because you don't care about lifes in India.

remember i told you about the blast in Mumbai. I said 300 people died. You said only. WHat the hell are you. Fucking say that to my face and i will slap you hard.

Yes there are fundamentalists in India. India need these people other wise your stupid Osama and other middle eastern country will destroy India.

Shame on you. What do you know? YOu support terrorists. So you don't care about other people's life.

Don't tell me. India cares about other's life that's why whole of middle east is alive. Otherwise they would have been roasted meat.

Talking about secular let me tell you. There no other country in middle east who allows free practice of other religion. if you know whats real then you should know this. Any Hindu going into Saudi Arabia are not allowed to take pictures (even pictures) of Hindu gods. That's how secular these people are eh??!!

These people are very tolerant huh??!!

Its because of people like you that India cannot develop. Always have a soft side for terrorists.

Forget USA. Why are you bringing in USA in here. Tell me the few reasons why those countries target India. what did India do to them. Answer this question. And if you give a proper answer to this question which is true and not made up shit then i will accept defeat to you and accept that Osama is god and we should all pray to him.

[miqsh]

u belive everything the media has to say. right? they would say that ur relative had passed away and only a jackass would believe that right away. i bet u would check it out if they are true wouldn't u?? since there are too many attacks from pakis it is okay to believe that they indeed were behind such inhumane acts. but how many proofs do u have that osama is against india?? i would not trust even my dog in the care of media people. so let alone my opinions.

[India1989]

as you say miqsh. I don't want to start a fight here as you easily get provoked. About people trusting media, we'll see. YOu see that you will trust media more in the future.

How did the partition of India take place. Its just like media. Few people told all the Hindus and Muslims that Muslims cut a cow and put it in Hindu's temple and Hindus cut a pig and put it in mosque and that's it. All the people who you are calling jackass started a riot.

If i believed media then today i would have given up my Indian citizenship easily without one thought and would have also hated Afghanistan, Iran, and all the countries in Arabian peninsula.

I have a lot of experience with media. I read newspaper and watch news everyday. If you say i don't know media good then think again. Why do i say Indians are dumb which according to you are jackasses. Well becaue they believe the media. Bilal is a media to us. Bilal says many things which i know are wrong. At this point true knowledge comes to help. I know what is the Kashmir problem which many people don't.

And trust me every person has believed media at one point of their lives which they shouldn't.

But media is not wrong all the time. That is also a fact. They might exagerate a fact but they are right 50% of the time.

[rohit khaitan]

You know what tsigano and miqsh.

You are a bunch of nerds who will go on fighting all ur life on this topic. You dumb asses believe in life after death. And when u will die u will be lying their 5 feet under the ground and a stray dog will come and piss on u grave and go away.

:D

I really find it hard to believe that how can their be dumb asses like u still living on earth. Its religious bigots like u who make life miserable for others. You do and believe in whatever shit u do. Why do u go around preaching others. :D

[Tsigano]

I think its a matter of facing the facts. The point of this thread was to discuss the facts on Christianity based on a load of made up nonsense by someone who is slanderring Christianity in the way to promote Islam.
I happily comment on this subject in the way of presenting the actual facts for all to make their own minds up.
When people die and are burried in the ground, their body rots and deteriates. The same is when They are burnt, they become ash, smoke and gases.
Whether there is a soul and also a spirit to a person is a matter of personal belief. If the belief teaches good and provides an answer, then how is this a bad thing?
If there is much evidence that support the belief as being more than just a belief then I for one am all ears.
With Christianity there are many unexplanable supernatural facts that can raise many questions for those willing to discuss.
Much love :)

[miqsh]

as you say miqsh. I don't want to start a fight here as you easily get provoked. About people trusting media, we'll see. YOu see that you will trust media more in the future.

How did the partition of India take place. Its just like media. Few people told all the Hindus and Muslims that Muslims cut a cow and put it in Hindu's temple and Hindus cut a pig and put it in mosque and that's it. All the people who you are calling jackass started a riot.

If i believed media then today i would have given up my Indian citizenship easily without one thought and would have also hated Afghanistan, Iran, and all the countries in Arabian peninsula.

I have a lot of experience with media. I read newspaper and watch news everyday. If you say i don't know media good then think again. Why do i say Indians are dumb which according to you are jackasses. Well becaue they believe the media. Bilal is a media to us. Bilal says many things which i know are wrong. At this point true knowledge comes to help. I know what is the Kashmir problem which many people don't.

And trust me every person has believed media at one point of their lives which they shouldn't.

But media is not wrong all the time. That is also a fact. They might exagerate a fact but they are right 50% of the time.


i do agree with the u that the media is right at times. but do u think that