Gypsies of Europe & America originate from Punjab

[Tsigano]

It is not until recent times that people have began to get an indication into where and whom the Roma derive. This is due to an increase of interest, collaborated with the larger availability of information due to modern times. It has become possible for experts within the relevant fields to come together and narrow down the possibilities of the Romani origin.

It is without doubt that the Roma have an Indian root. This can be proved with a thorough and in-depth study using a combination of language, customs, belief and DNA.

It is from these sources that we must look into to get any true idea.

Language

The Indian origin of Romanis

To understand the Indian origin of the Romani language it is necessary to look at the evolution of languages within India itself. There are two major language types within India, the first, Dravidian, was once spoken over most of India but is now used more significantly in the southern regions. The other, Indo-Aryan, is believed to have had its origin from the Northwest as both its formation and vocabulary are closely related to ancient Iranian languages. The newer Indo-Aryan languages from the Northwest of India have now replaced much of the older Dravidian languages in most regions of India especially in the North. This process of changeover started happening thousands of years ago.
The Indian words that feature within the Romani vocabulary originate from the Indo-Aryan language type.
The earliest Indo-Aryan language recorded within India is Sanskrit. There are different stages of Sanskrit according to its time period, the oldest known being Vedic Sanskrit. All the present Indo-Aryan languages have derived from Sanskrit via Prakrit. Prakrit was the spoken Indo-Aryan language and any adaptations within the language or changes were unique to region. In time the changes became so great that they became identified as separate regional languages such as Hindi, Punjabi, Gujarati and Urdu. Hindi is now the primary national language that is identified over most of India. Although Hindi is very similar to all the other Indo-Aryan languages, it is recognised across regions, whereas most of the other dialects are only recognised within specific regions and states.



Learning from the Words and Grammar of Romanis

Looking at the words within the Romani language it is viable to say that they have their origin from Prakrit that is unique to the Punjabi region of Northwest India and Northern Pakistan.

The quickest way to confirm that Romanis is from Punjabi regional Prakrit is to compare it to modern Punjabi, which has also derived from the same Prakrit. There are certain words within Punjabi that are of Sanskrit origin but have changes unique only to Punjabi. Examples of these words are Phrah meaning ‘brother’, Phehn meaning ‘sister’, Khar meaning ‘house’, Kura meaning ‘horse’ and Oteh meaning ‘over there’. [‘Ph’ is pronounced as ‘p’ with a slight ‘h’ after it and not as the English ‘ph’ that has a similar sound as ‘f’]

The equivalent words in Hindi and most other Indo Aryan languages are Bhai, Bahin, Ghar, Gura and Udahr.

Now if we look at the same words in Romanis they are Phrahl, Phehn, Kher, Kuro (meaning ‘Colt’) and lastly Oteh.

From this we can observe that the Romani words are the same as the words that are unique to Punjabi and therefore must have come via Prakrit of the region in which Punjabi developed.

Romanis is a two gender language as it has masculine and feminine. Up until around 1000ad, the languages of India were three genders as it had masculine, feminine and also neuter. Around 1000ad most neuter words became masculine whilst the others became feminine. The Indian words that are now two genders can be seen in Romanis which supports claims that the Roma must have left India after 1000ad.

Punjabi / Panjabi

As already mentioned above, there are words within the Romani language that are only also spoken by speakers of Punjabi. Speakers of Romanis will find they have many similarities with speakers of Punjabi.

Hindi

Some words within Romanis are present within modern day Hindi, yet they are not spoken in Punjabi. This is probably due to the words being spoken in the earlier Punjabi region yet were lost or replaced in the later years.

Words such as hahmahra (Romanis is ‘Ahmahro’) meaning ‘our’ or rhuk meaning ‘tree’ are still spoken in Hindi.

Dardic

In addition to the Punjabi & Hindi words we must also observe the Romani word for white, which is ‘Parno’, apparently this word is from a Dardic word, though I must confess that I myself am not familiar with this language. According to one source the dardic word for white is ‘parna’.

Dardic like Punjabi is a language that is again spoken within the far Northwest of India and Northern Pakistan. The main region that it is spoken is Kashmir and Jammu, which is the region neighbouring to the North of the Punjab.

Sanskrit

As mentioned earlier Sanskrit is an old language and had the largest hand in contributing to the making of the newer Indo-Aryan languages, so it is easy to understand how there are words directly from Sanskrit present in Romanis. Shahveh meaning ‘children’ is from Sahveh meaning ‘youth’. Kam meaning ‘love’ and Dev meaning ‘God’ are also examples of words that have arrived directly from Sanskrit.

Singhalese

In one recent report, it states that Romanis is closely related to Sinhala, the Singhalese language spoken in Sri Lanka. I myself am sceptical of this comment as it may be that the same similarities can be drawn with most Indo-Aryan languages and from my own experience when talking to Singhalese, I didn’t find a large deal of exchange when comparing language unlike when with Punjabis who I usually find are shocked with disbelief with some of our words.

The Singhalese people who are the largest percentage of the people living on the Island of Sri Lanka are like the Romani people as much as it is a mystery to how they arrived to being where they are today. Their origins are unclear but it is absolute certain that they came from Northern India as can been seen by genetic makeup and also there beliefs, customs and language and they are believed to have arrived around 5bc. The language itself has many loan words from the Dravidian language group that is spoken by their Tamil neighbours whom they share the island of Sri Lanka with and Pali also influences it, which is a language similar to Sanskrit that was invented by Buddhists for use with Buddhism, which is the main Singhalese religion. Like Romanis, Singhalese has its earliest roots and influences from Sanskrit, however it does not share a common likeness with Romanis by having many Punjabi spoken words.

Persian & Urdu

There are also a lot of Persian words that are absorbed into the Romani language. Interestingly there is a large match with the Persian words within Romani to that of the Persian words within Urdu. So great is the match that it could suggest that many of the Persian words within Romanis were picked up whilst still living within India. This could suggest that the Roma lived towards the border region of India that had previously had much Persian influence such as towards the Northwest frontier region prior to having any Arabic rule and influence taken place.

Other Indian Languages

Someone comparing Romanis with someone who speaks Bengali will discover that there are many similar words such as Pahni meaning ‘water’. This does not mean Romanis has come from Bengali as the same word is also used in most Indian languages. :D

[Tsigano]

Words that have been absorbed into Romanis after leaving India

Looking at the modern dialects of Romanis, it seems that they only pick up occasional words or adaptations in the language from environments that they have stayed and intermingled with for a considerable time period. Even though the English Roma did pass through France for a time, they don’t have any recognisable French words picked up. They do however have some Romanian and Slavic words, which suggest a more substantial influence from that region. According to recorded history, upon entering into Europe, the Roma did spend time in that region and were employed and even forced into slavery by the Romanian and Hungarian rulers to manufacture artillery.

After the vast number of words and grammar that are of Indian origin, the next largest influence is from the Anatolian region of the Byzantium time period. There are a considerable number of words that are of Byzantine Greek and Armenian.

The Byzantine Empire was founded when the capital of the Roman Empire was transferred from Rome to Constantinople in 324 and it existed in the eastern Mediterranean area until the fifteenth century.

During the time of the Roma leaving India in the early 10th century the empire was at its apogee and the empire covered all of the Balkan countries of Southeast Europe and stretched across to the lands of Armenia and Northern Iraq. In 1071 Muslim Seljuk Turks under Alp Arslan Battled with the Byzantine army under Romanus IV Diogenes at Mantzikert (near Lake Van in modern Turkey) leading to a Seljuks win and them taking parts of Asia Minor, including Armenia, from the Byzantines.

Armenia was strong in its Christian faith and suffered greatly at the hands of the Muslim Turks. At this time many Armenians fled and formed expatriate communities elsewhere, the greatest being the new independent Armenian state, the Kingdom of Cilicia in Byzantine southern Turkey. Cilicia had so many Armenians that it became known as ‘lesser Armenia’. In 1375, this last period of Cilician independence came to an end, when the country became part of the Ottoman Empire.

According to European records, the first Romani groups were recorded as being in Southeast Europe during the 1300s. In 1417, a group of about 200 Roma, led by a man called Andrew, approached the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in Germany and claimed to be Christians who had fled from Muslims who were forcing them to give up their faith in the way of Islam.

They came from ‘little Egypt’ which according to many sources, was the name used for the area of Turkey and the Middle East. Is it also possible that Little Egypt could have been a reference to Lesser Armenia which was also sometimes called ‘Little Armenia’, as this would neatly support the formation of the Romani language?

If little Egypt was a reference to Lesser Armenia, which is highly probable to be the case due to the Armenian words having to have got into the Romani language somehow, it is viable that while the Roma were amongst their Armenian Christian neighbours, many of the religious ideals rubbed off on them, hence them claiming to be Christians.

So why did they travel to Cilicia? Well, if we can confirm that they had to have left India after 1000ad due the two genders in Romanis, then we must look into the Indian history books of that time period to get an idea.

Around the time of 1000ad, India was under immense attack from Muslim Afghans and Turks which would explain the possibility of population upheaval. The Islamic empire at this time was not just expanding in the East but was trying to expand on all sides. One of the strongest nations at the time who showed any power to resist was the Byzantine Empire to the West. If the Roma fled through the Islamic empire not stopping until they were out, then one of the first places they could possibly stumble upon is Cilicia. Cilicia was not far across the Byzantium border, yet it was powerful enough to look safe. A large majority of the population were Armenian and had previously immigrated to the area for reasons of attack on their homeland by Muslim Turks, so it is possible that they would have been understanding and supportive of the Romani arrival.

This would make perfect sense as to how the Romani language developed with the influence of both Greek and Armenian. Cilicia held strong until its fall to Muslim in 1375, which is approximately when the Roma entered into Europe claiming they were fleeing Muslim advance. :D

[RajivvijaR]

During centuries, gypsies were persecuted in Europe .I think India would do something great by helping those people. Gypsies and Jewish both lost respectively 8 million and 6 millions during the Nazi genocide. Consequently, the Jews decided to make their own country, so never it happend again. Unfortunately, the gypsies are still humiliated in Europe, in country like Serbia, Hungary and Austria. India should help them organize travel to their ancient homeland in Punjab. This could develop a form of tourism since those people are citizen of many European countries and could help tourism in Punjab.

[Tsigano]

Hi RajivvijaR :)

I'm with you 100%. I have intentions of going to the Punjab as I have many Anglo-Panjabi friends and am waiting for the right opportunity.

The Roma (pronounced 'Rhomma'), Sinte ('Sint-eh') & Cale ('kahl-eh') lost between 250,000 and 500,000 along side nearly 6million Jews due to the Nazi racist extermination. The Sinte lost the most numbers followed by the Roma. The Sinte were one of the biggest tribes but now they are the smallest.
Its ironic as the Nazi claimed to be Aryan and believed they were the superior race however the Roma, Sinte & Cale have a greater claim to having Aryan blood than any German. We only have to look at the DNA and the language of the Roma to prove this.

Many died to being overworked or because they were used in medical experiments. Even more were killed in gas chambers.
Hitler wanted the perfect race of blonde hair and blue eyes. He liked the Japanese as they tended to only marry thier own. He saw the French as cowards.
He did not like the Jews as he blamed them for the failure of Germany during the first world war. It was Jewish money that funded the allies.

In 1976 Romani festival was held at Chandigarh. Pandit Nehru's daughter, Mrs Indira Gandhi, prime minister of India pledged support.

People should not make the mistake of confusing the Roma, Cale & Sinte Gypsies of Europe with the gipsies of India as there is no proven connection. It was the British in India that labelled the nomadic tribes of India as 'gipsies'.
There are various theories explaining the Roma of Europe. Some lean toward them being militant due to many of the Romani words and customs paralleled with Rajput militia.

[Tsigano]

Are they Domari nomads of the middle East and central Asia related to the Roma, Cale and Sinte tribes of Europe?
Looking into the Domari language the first thing I notice is the absence of words from Punjabi prakrit. Romani words of Punjabi prakrit such as Phrahl, Phehn, Kher, Kuro (meaning ‘Colt’) and Otteh are replaced with words of a different Indian origin and are Bar, Beynam, Gar, Gori and Hundar. The equivalents of these words in Hindi are Bhai, Bahin, Ghar, Gura and Udhar. As we can see the words that the Domari speak are close to the words spoken in Hindi so we can assume that they are likely to be from a different region to that of the Punjab. The title Dom means man and is likely to be from Sanskrit ‘Domba’.
In addition to these finds, I have also discovered that the Domari language has three genders unlike the Romani language that has two. As mentioned previously languages in India had three genders prior to 1000ad before converting to two genders. This would make to obvious conclusion that the Domari language is from an earlier time period to that of the Romani language and would therefore suggest that the Domari tribes of Central Asia and the Middle East left India at an earlier time than that of the Romani tribes that appeared in Europe during the second millennium.

The Dom tribes live in an area from North Africa across to Central Asia and into India. Many of them do not go under the name Dom but usually refer to themselves under different titles such as Jat, Zott, Zatt, Ghorbati, Kurbat, Qorbati, or Kowli. Many of these tribes speak Domari however many have also lost their language in place of Arabic or local languages. There are also nomads within India that go under the name Dom, Dombara and Jath who are also very probually related to these people.
In 961ad, it is reported by the Arab historian Hamza al-Isfahani that the Shur of Persia, Bahram V. Gur (420-438ad), brought from India over 10,000 musicians to Persia due the lack of singers in his own country. Hamza claims that the musicians were spread across all the regions of the empire and he says that in his time, although they are fewer in number they are still to be found. He says that they belong to the tribe of the Zott.
Zott is the Arabic version of the name Jat which are both name that we can see are still used today, but we must not get these tribes confused with the Jatt caste of farmer people of the Punjab. There is little to suggest a connection between these two but rather it is believed that Jat was the name used for the region of Sind by the Arabs.

The Luri of Iran are itinerant musicians who don’t like to be refered to as Lori but rather as Ghorbati. Amongst their own they refer to themselves as Doms. They have a tale explaining how they came to be nomads in Persia. They claim that once upon a time in the fifth century, Bahram Gur the King of Persia requested musicians. 10000 Luri from India were sent and the King was so pleased with their music that he gave them all land, cattle and grain to settle as farmers and serve as minstrels. But they were unprepared to be farmers and consumed both cattle and grain. This angered the King that he turned them off their land and condemned them to their nomadic existence.
The Ghorbati of Iran and Afghanistan are mainly smiths and ironworkers, but also make musical instruments and sell animals. They speak Kurbat which is a dialect of Domari. According to a legend they believe that they descend from a Persian King who disrespected the prophet Mohammed and so were condemned to a nomadic life.

[observer]

Very interesting and informative posts :) I have only recently discovered about the Indian origins of the Roma people and have been reading about it with interest.

[India1989]

So you mean that many Romans are of Indian origin. But as far as I know that no Indians were nomadic back then. That's what we were taught in history. How come then Indians reached ROme. I mean some Indians in Rajasthan were nomadic but not from Punjab and even if they were nomadic they roamed around inside the country and didn't venture outside the country. Very rarely they went outside the country.

[Tsigano]

Roma as in my familiya has nothing to do with the city of Roma (Rome) nor the people connected to that city. Infact the words are pronounced differant. The city is pronounced as 'Roe-ma' and people from that city were the 'Roe-mans', whereas with my familiya it is 'Rom-ma'.
The root of the 'Rom' in my familiya is connected with marriage and a male married man within a vitsa (clan) is called a Rom and his wife is a Romni.
'a' on the end of a word within Romanis / Romanes (name of the Romani language) makes it plural. e.g. Yahk meaning 'eye' and Yahka meaning 'Eyes'.

The Roma were not nomadic in India but according to Proffessor Dr W.R Rishi, it is believed that they were actually from Rajput. They were warrior caste and were the frontline defence against the Afghan / Turk Muslim invasion of just around 1000ad. The Roma were defeated in their attempts and took refuge in the safety of the Byzantine lands of Southern Turkey which was home also to many Armenians who also had to take refuge due to Muslim invasion of Armenia. The Roma lived in this land for many years and were known as people who did not want to intermingle with others but kept themselves to themselves due to their strict rules on hygeine and cleanliness. (this rules are a result from Hinduism)
The Romani language is Punjabi, Sanskrit, Hindi, with Dardic & Persian words. It also has Byzantium Greek and Armenian words that were picked up whilst living in Turkey.
They left Byzantine Turkey when the Ottoman Turks invaded and occupied Turkey.
It is during this time when it is recorded that they entered into Europe claiming that they were fleeing Muslim capture. It is possible that it is at this time that they became nomadic. They never managed to be fully accepted into Europe due to the Europeans seeing them as a threat due to dark skin and strange beliefs that were differant to thier own.

Roma (Roms) are nothing to do with Rome or the Romans. They left India around 1010ish and travelled across to Turkey where they stayed for a time before entering into Europe.

[Tsigano]

The Romani language is a decendant of Punjabi Prakrit. hence it having Punjabi, Hindi & Sanskrit words. The Persian and Dardic words are a sign that they were in the lands such as the Punjab towards the N.W. frontier province. Most the Persian words are same as the Persian words that are present in Urdu.
Prior to the time when the Roma left India, the Punjab region would have had much influence from the Persian empires neighbouring to its west.

[India1989]

THat maybe true. So Romas are actually from which country? Are they from Turkey?

And I know Rajputs. They are brave warriors. They are still India's one of the main warriors who has defeated our enemies for 57 years.

[Tsigano]

The Roma are from the Punjab region of India. they came into Europe via living in Turkey. We speak an India language related to modern Punjabi.

i.e mihro phrahl = my brother
mihri phen = my sister.

We marry from our own people.
Some Roma say we are descent from King 'Rom', hence a married man being referred to as a 'Rom'.
It has been suggested the the title 'Rom' could be from the name 'Ram'.

[Tsigano]

It is known that the period of time around 1000 AD was one of great turmoil in the northern part of the Indian Subcontinent. The Muslim invasions wrought havoc and led to massive population movements. The scholar Ian Hancock and also W.R. Rishi wrote that the Roma ancestors left the Subcontinent as a result of these circumstances. Between the years 1001 and 1026, the Muslim Afghans and Turks known as Ghaznavids made seventeen invasions in the Punjab and Sindh areas, fighting against the local Hindus. The Rajputs played a major role in the resistance. They were a mixture of different jāti (castes) brought together by a common desire to repel the foreign invaders. There are accounts that many of them were captured and sent to Central Asia to be used as conscripts in further fighting, and that others left the war zone, heading west.

These movements of population involved many categories, because the Rajputs would go to war with their families and their associates frequently. The Romani language sustains the claimed Rajputic ancestry: most of the words related to war are of Indo-Aryan ancestry like bust (spear), patava (gaiters), xanrro (sword), tover (axe). The name for those who are not Roma, gaje derives from Prakritic gajja (civilian, domestic, non-military). There is an 80% match of Romani words of Persian origin with the Persian words in Urdu. The latter is the Indo-Aryan language (with many Persian and Arabic loans) that evolved in the new society of Desi converts to Islam or those captured by the Muslims (Urdu means army). Also there are cultural similarities between Roma and Rajputs and DNA research demonstrates genetic proximity.

[Tsigano]

Most Roma speak Romanis, an Indo-Aryan language derived from Sanskrit. Romani is also related to Pothohari.

Pothohari is an Indo-Aryan language and along with standard Punjabi has been traced to be the source language of the Roma/Sinti people of Europe.

Although a dialect of Punjabi, Pothohari also contains unique words not found in standard Punjabi, along with some differences in pronunciation.

From the same site...

Roma society and culture

A Gipsy Family - Facsimile of a woodcut in the "Cosmographie Universelle" of Munster: in folio, Basle, 1552.The traditional Roma place a high value on the extended family. Virginity is essential in unmarried women. Both men and women often marry young; there has been controversy in several countries over the Roma practice of child marriage. Roma law establishes that the man’s family must pay a dowry to the bride's parents.

Roma social behaviour is strictly regulated by purity laws ("marime" or "marhime"), still respected by most Roma and among Sinti groups by the older generations. This regulation affects many aspects of life, and is applied to actions, people and things: parts of the human body are considered impure: the genital organs, because they produce impure emissions, and the lower body. Fingernails and toenails must be filed with an emery board, as cutting them with a clipper is taboo. Clothes for the lower body, as well as the clothes of menstruating women are washed separately. Items used for eating are also washed in a different place. Childbirth is considered impure, and must occur outside the dwelling place. The mother is considered impure for forty days. Death is seen as impure, and affects the whole family of the dead, who remain impure for a period of time.

[India1989]

WOOOW!! I never knew this and nor did most of the Indians. I am actually suprised by the amount of knowledge you have about the Indian history. I knew that Afghan muslims used to come and attack the Indian territory over here and I also knew that the Indians migrated from India but never knew they were in Europe and are called Roma. I would like to know more about these people and hopefully you guys can also integrate into the Indian population soon. (if you guys wish too).

Indian public and govt. is generally unaware of this kind of things. Like they were unaware of the Indians living in Fiji, South American, Mauritius and other places but when they came to know about them they were invited to India and honoured for maintaining their culture and achievement. Now they can also get Indian citizenship or more accurately a PIO card. PIO mean People of Indian Origin card. Although this doesn't give you a complete citizenship this will give you access to a lot of things in India. Like you can come in India without a visa and stay in India as long as you can and buy property and can vote. But to be a complete citizen you have to stay in India for certain amount of years. Difference is that if you don't have PIO card you have to get a visa and you have to stay in India for a longer time(about triple the time if you don't have PIO card) to get a citizenship.

India's main aim is to integrate all the Indians and invite them back home. But for this they need to work even more. This is just the begining. Trust me India is not that bad now. One can easily live in luxury in India.

I want to know few things. Are Roma people aware of were they are from and do they support India or not? Do you guys still resemble the Punjabis in India, i mean how do you look and stuff? Just wanted to know. I would love to meet the Romas. Punjab is a very nice place. People over there have tremendous will power and they are one of the main fighters of our army too who has destroyed our enemies.
If you want to visit India then i can help you. Probably in future i can also help you go there and guide you hopefully.

[Tsigano]

Thankyou India1989 :) . I appreciate your kind welcoming response.

Many Roma have maintained much of their appearance depending on which Vitsa they belong to and how strict they have kept to the Romani code and laws.

Many of the Roma vitsa of countries such as Great Britian have mixed into thier blood that from Gahje (non-Roma) so they are light skinned. mixed blooded vitsa are known as 'diddikai' (often shortened to 'kai').

Many Roma are still being educated on their Indian origin but most have a passion for India.
Roma can still identify with many Indians through customs etc.
Even things like the way we sit with men and women seperate is the same.

Take care
Sahstipeh (same as 'sahsriakahl' in Punjabi) :)

[India1989]

cool. NIce to see that you guys have passion for India. Well looks wont matter much. Cause in India there are people looking of almost all the types. Black, brown, white, yellow and stuff.

I appreciate that you guys have maintained the culture well and hopefully soon Indian govt. will know about this. I would be eager to help any of those Indians out there when i am fully capable of. Basically if Indian govt is made aware of these things then in few years you guys will be capable of having a PIO card too.

Let me distinguish between PIO and NRI.

PIO are people of Indian origin who had to go out of India because of some reason before India's independence.

NRI are Indians who has recently migrated from India after 1950. NRI means Non-resident Indians who still retains Indian citizenship.
It would be nice to have you guys back in India. It will add to the wealth of diversity we have.

Right now we have 2 most qualified ministers. One is our PM and another is our President. If they come to know of these they will surely figure a way out.

This is actually the first time I am hearing about Roma people. I would love to meet one. So are you Roma too Tsigano?

I am Bengali and come from eastern part of India. We look completely different from Roma people or from Punjabis. We are kind of short and dark brown colour. We speak Bengali, one of the 415 distinct languages of India. This is the 3rd highest in the world.

Now i am getting clearer about the Roma people. Its easier to understand now.It was nice talking to you about this.

Yeah if you want to know anything about India then just ask me and anything about your place Punjab then ask here. I am sure that people would be glad to answer your question.
And if i come up with a question about Romas again i will ask you.

Sahstipeh

[Tsigano]

Hi again India1989 :)

Yes I am from Romanichal vitsa of England.

Here are a couple of links showing some Roma

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9403608

http://www.khamoro.cz/

:)

[India1989]

Nice to see some Romanis. They still have retained all of thier culture and its olden type of people living in Punjab. Now Punjabis are a bit different but you guys have maintained the culture. That's great.

[Tsigano]

Hi India1989 :)

I have Indian friends in the UK that are fearful to go to Eastern Europe due to the rasism that goes on there. Places like Prague and similar big cities are open to alot of western tourism which is making an major impact but even then there have been individual cases where hostile encounters have been met. Not nessessarily serious cases but then the local authorities will take action if a tourist is involved in an inccident. I'm sure the locals are aware of this.

Imagine what some of the Roma that live there go through. England is very multi-cultural now and has a low tolerance to discrimination. Some of these Eastern European countries have little in the way of ethnics other than the Roma who have been there for hundreds of years and have suffered at the hands horrific descrimination.

Often it is the police and authorities that commit some of the worst crimes.
Imagine a team of policemen beating you to near death in front of your family all because of your ethnic identity.
Back in the olden days of Europe then the death sentance was common by knights or soldiers etc.

My heart goes out to them. :eek:

Luckily times are slowly changing due to advancement in travel, communication technology and social awareness. ;)

[India1989]

I am really sorry to hear about this. Racism is one thing which is very unacceptable in today's society. Hopefully the situation is better now over there. I wished that Roma could come back to their country India. They would be treated equally or get more advantage. Police always commit really bad crimes. They also sometimes encourage racism. that is really bad. Romas have gone through really tough situation. My condolences towards them. I am happy that they are more happy now. Hopefully their condition improve more.

[Tsigano]

Here is a music video by some Roma of Europe. They were the first real wave of Indian people into Europe and they come from the Punjab region of India and have been in Europe for hundreds of years. They have maitained their darker features because it is a crime within Romani culture to marry a 'Gahjeh' (non-Romani). Romani class non-Romani as dirty / unclean people (A system of belief that originates from Vedic scripture).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7GCW6wWeAY

Mahala means 'quarter' and is often now used to mean 'living quarters'.
Rai means 'king / lord' like the Indian surname meaning the same. (the female equiverlant to Rai is 'Rahni')
Banda obviously means 'band / bands'.

The Roma ahndo (in) this video are obviously Catholic or some kind of Orthodox church.

[Tsigano]

Forgive the jazz. :eek:
Some of those people in the video are probually hard as nails. Bare knuckle boxing and fighting are all part of the Romani culture.
Boys are often taught to fight from a young age by their elders. Woman are not expected or supposed to fight, though I've seen some that can, :o .

[India1989]

nice video guy. i wish they come back to India.

[artemiss]

Wow, this is VERY fascinating!
Can you tell me about the dispersal of the Roma in Europe..
what countries they have populations in and such?
Were there any populations living in Portugal aroung the turn of the century (1900?)
I am an American trying to trace a portion of my family tree and am running into to dead ends with the information that was left by the ones who came over.
Thanks!
~a~

[bhachoudhary]

nice video guy. i wish they come back to India.

Wo wo wo..be careful...Roma are not the same as Indians. and trust me they do some things in east europe that you don't want in India. For eg., in bucharest( Romania), gypsies are the worst criminals. They still believe in kings and emperors. In fact they have a 500 pound idiot who calls himself the emperor and I saw him on TV screaming with a sword in his hand, shouting like a hooligan. The gypsies in bucharest make lewd remarks to girls, sometimes molest them and are the worst thieves on public transportations.

Off course not all of them are like this but the majority yes. All the western countries like France and Germany pay them money to go back to romania or Bulgaria and to leave them in peace. They are a nuisence wherever they go.

[Tsigano]

Roma in Eastern Europe such as Romania have suffered some of the worst persecution for hundreds of years.
The truth is that the general people of Eastern European countries especially the Balkan countries (and also Turkey, not forgetting most arabian influenced countries) have a tendency to be very forward coming towards girls. To slander the Roma is incorrect. Infact the truth on the Romani code of living is that they should not be allowed to act in such a manner.
In England there is a present critical problem with immigrants coming from such countries doing exactly the conduct what is mentioned in your post. None of these are Roma but are from Balkan countries.
Similar problems have been committed by the many new Iraqis, Lebanese and Afghans to name a few.
They all especially target blonde haired women. They are sick and in my opinion should really be castrated.
It is happening all the time. They are scum. I have to live with the problem. It is in the papers all the time, they cause trouble in the shopping centres and nightclubs etc. They all get money from the British government, yet they don't work only illegally making money out of crime.
NONE of these are Roma, but are mostly from Balkan countries or middle eatern countries.
There are also many Polish / Poles and Lithuanians coming into the country yet they all work and cause little trouble. I have to give them the full respect they deserve. The only problem with these is that they will work for little money and they take all the jobs causing a problem with employment within the country.

[Tsigano]

I still must say this situation is a real problem in the UK

I can actually list first hand examples of situations encountered by people I personally know.
It is a real problem. Their attitude towards the western women is sickening to see and whats more is that the local authorities are not dealing with the problem..

[Tsigano]

Many of the trouble makers apparently come from the former Yugoslavia, yet I have also seen Lebanese / Afgahns & Iraqis making the local papers for crimes such as sexual assualt charges.
Speaking to the employees of some of the fried chicken shops, they are worked by Afghans. Respects to them for working a proper job, even if it is not well paying.

It is being warned that the next wave of problem will come via Bulgaria & Romania if they come into the EU. Apparently there are some very bad organised crime gangs operating within these countries.

Many of the immigrants that are here now and are presently operating in gangs have had some terrible feuds.

[Tsigano]

Some facts about the Roma...

My family as well as many other Roma families own land, housing, and private businesses.

The Romani church personally pays for orphaneges in countries such as Romania.
Sonnie Gibbard who is the president of the Gypsy council personally payed for a village in Romania to have clean running water. Not just for the Roma there but also the Gaje (non-Roma).
When Sonnie came back to the town a year or so later, he was discusted to discover the the Romanian Gaje had turned the clean water off for the Romani side of town. Sonnie had the problem corrected and upon arrival back in the UK, personally went to the Romanian embassy and insisted that the water supply is guarded by the Romanian authorities. Notice this is an example of Roma personally helping not just their own but also the Gaje community around them. Notice how they are paid. Eastern Europe is still very much full of people with very racist attitudes.


**Taken off a Christian Website referring to Sonnies efforts (Sonnie is also an active Christian in his beliefs)**
"In 1998/99 a major Water Project was undertaken in the village of Chirileu and its successful conclusion was reported on local television. Subsequently the Romanian government pinpointed 40 other villages to be supplied with piped water."
Apparently some Christian friends of Sonnie's also helped to contribute personal funds towards the project. :)

[andrada]

Some facts about the Roma...

My family as well as many other Roma families own land, housing, and private businesses.

The Romani church personally pays for orphaneges in countries such as Romania.
Sonnie Gibbard who is the president of the Gypsy council personally payed for a village in Romania to have clean running water. Not just for the Roma there but also the Gaje (non-Roma).
When Sonnie came back to the town a year or so later, he was discusted to discover the the Romanian Gaje had turned the clean water off for the Romani side of town. Sonnie had the problem corrected and upon arrival back in the UK, personally went to the Romanian embassy and insisted that the water supply is guarded by the Romanian authorities. Notice this is an example of Roma personally helping not just their own but also the Gaje community around them. Notice how they are paid. Eastern Europe is still very much full of people with very racist attitudes.


**Taken off a Christian Website referring to Sonnies efforts (Sonnie is also an active Christian in his beliefs)**
"In 1998/99 a major Water Project was undertaken in the village of Chirileu and its successful conclusion was reported on local television. Subsequently the Romanian government pinpointed 40 other villages to be supplied with piped water."
Apparently some Christian friends of Sonnie's also helped to contribute personal funds towards the project. :)


h many times have u visit eastern europe? do u knw smthing bt those ppl u talk bt? u call them racist. h many u really met? h many days u lived in a country from east europe? wht u knw bt the communist time nd bt h gypsies are for real there? u have any idea bt h many racist east european are married wit gypsies? or black ppl ,or chinese? u knw smthin bt the religion there? is it chatolic? muslim? orthodoxe?
wht u knw bt romania, smthin else tht wht u read on net?

[Tsigano]

I've just got back from being in Turkey and I must be honest the landscape was lovely and I met some very nice people and have made some good friends. I've had the invitation to go to Mardin next which is in the Kurdish part of Turkey.
The majority of men there were a disrace to watch around western women. As were many of the western women flirting around them. The majority of the women there seemed the opposite, which is not surprising as it is a muslim country. The women are expected to act pure but the men can be complete hypocrites and as perverted as they choose.

My partner is Jatt Punjabi with a lighter complexion so it was quite amuzing as many mistoke her for Turkish.

If it is Romania that you are enquire over, then my personal experience there is relatively short, though I have a lot of contact with people who do work there and also I have contact with Roma there.
One friend of mine regularly travels there to work on an orphanage (not a Romani biult one). The orphanage was started and built by an British couple who sold their own house in the UK so they could finance and help the children there.
The orphanage is for children with HIV. Most got the disease though dirty needles during normal vacinations. The Romanian government do nothing for the children and try to deny thier existance.
It has not been uncommon for normal Romanian folk to spit on the children in the street, though we must assume that this is only a select few and give the majority of the population the benefit of the doubt.
The UK is being flooded with immegrants from Eastern European countries. It is easy for people in the UK the see and determine the differance in the many new cultures if they are in constant contact with them.

[monica]

Languages spoken in India

In India there are a number of languages spoken.Every state in India has a language spoken of its own.
Similarly languages spoken in every region are different.
There are a number of languages a person can learn.
I think there must a website through which a person can learn any language of his choice.
Does any one support my views?
Please reply

[India1989]

I do support your view monica, but i think it is hard to put in 415 Indian languages on a web and also if you are thinking of world then you have to add about 7000 languages.

[Tsigano]

:) Total rspect to Bhangra megastar 'Aman Hayer' :)

He has done a song with a Rromani theme and he has done it great :D

check it out :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_BiP8V3JIM

[observer]

That song has Rromani musical instrument sounds in it right? I love the sound of them :D