[translate from China]we no longer acknowledge the Sikkim kingdom!

[靓虬客]

we no longer acknowledge the Sikkim kingdom!

Author: Mei Ling; submit date: 2006-7-9 21:00:00

When I studied in elementary school, I knew Sikkim is one of China's neighboring country with capital called GanTuoKe. In middle school, I had known that she had been seized by Indian. In university, I were interested in this tiny country and read many books about this nation. Along with the improved relationship with India, Sikkim gradually fades out our sight. Till these days, the government suddenly alleges that Sikkim belongs to Indian then I suddenly wake up: our country doesn't acknowledgeSikkim as a country now!

Sikkim, a hereditary king country with ancient name ZheMengXiong is a part of China's Tibet even far in the A.D. 7 century. Sikkim becomes a independent tribe in 9th century, but its temples are still subordinated to Tibet's big temple. Sikkim kingdom is established in 17th century. In 1814, the England East India company started to invade Sikkim. In 1887, England usurped Sikkim and ruled it by a commissioner. In 1890 Sikkim degenerated into England "the protectorate". In 1947, India and Sikkim signed "Maintains Present situation Agreement" which permited that india could send a commissioner to Sikkim. "Sikkim parliament" which was supported by evil India initiated a "do not cooperate" movement to request the king to carry on "reform". In the same year on May 9, a government was established which opposed the Sikkim royal families, thus emerged tempests for freedom day after day in Sikkim.
In the beginning of June, 1949, India had the pretense to prevent "turmoil and bleed", dispatched troops to invade Sikkim. India had taken over the control of the one-month-long government, and appointed a evil Indian guy for Sikkim prime ministers. In December, 1950, India forced Sikkim to sign "India And Sikkim Peace treaty", from that time Sikkim becomed Indian "protectorate". India controled its defense, diplomacy and economy etc.. In August, 1968, Sikkim erupted a counter-India movement that wanted to abolish the unfair treaty. Indian government had suppressed it and killed many people and had fulfilled the brutal military occupation in April, 1973. On June 20, 1974, Sikkim parliament passed the Sikkim constitution which was drew by India which stipulated that Indian government had the right to accredit Sikkim chief Administrative and heads of government and parliament(Is this indian democracy?). In April, 1975, Indian force has arrested Sikkim king. Soon, it was "Indian parliament" who agree a resolution which claimed that Sikkim was one "nation" of India.

Will China acknowledge that Sikkim is still a country? I think it is a political matter, our statesmen must weigh the advantages and disadvantages. but for a common chinese, I think we should not only put eyes on the friendship with India, but also should not forgot that this country like to invade others!

[observer]

Chief of Minister of Sikkim today is Pawan Kumar Chamling who is Sikkimese. Does this sound like a Chinese name? Major religions of Sikkim are Hinduism and Buddhism which is a daughter religion of Hinduism. Are these Chinese religions? Post your propaganda on Chinese forums not here.

[SLASH]

Actually Buddhism is a daughter fo Jainism which is a daughter of Hinduism :) .

[observer]

Another thing. These regions, Tibet, Sikkim etc. have always been militarily occupied or alleged to have been covertly taken over by China, British India or independent India. All of this has happened in history. Now let's be happy with whatever territories we have and not try to snatch eachother's territories and respect eachother, ok.

[observer]

Actually Buddhism is a daughter fo Jainism which is a daughter of Hinduism

Oh thanks Slash, I didn't know :)

[India1989]

Dear triple square when will you guys learn. This topic has been discussed 2nd time in this thread. First of all Buddhism originated in India. And according to what this article is saying it means that whole China and Tibet should be India's part cause they are Buddhists. Am i right triple square?

man look what your Chinese govt. teach you.
The real history is this.

Sikkim in early 1950's feared a communist invasion which is China so they asked for India's protection. India gave protection to Sikkim. For more then 20 years India kept on giving protection to Sikkim then later India was involved in its other wars so they had to withdraw the soldiers. Then fearing a Chinese attack king of Sikkim opted to be a part of India. There was a plebiscite conducted in Sikkim. 98% of people voted to be a part of India and remaining 2% choose to be independent or they said that it doens't matter to them.

Then Sikkim merged with India. As soon as they merged without doing atrocities on them like China did on Tibet we started building roads, airports, schools and hospitals and hotels over there. Now Sikkim earns most of their money from domestic toursim. Now they are a prosperous state.

[靓虬客]

Another thing. These regions, Tibet, Sikkim etc. have always been militarily occupied or alleged to have been covertly taken over by China, British India or independent India. All of this has happened in history. Now let's be happy with whatever territories we have and not try to snatch eachother's territories and respect eachother, ok.
You are a nice guy,I also think so! But let Indian know how we Chinese look at India is maybe not a bad thing.
And if possible, I would translate some articles into Chinese for posting in our forums.

[bolyer]

There was a plebiscite conducted in Sikkim. 98% of people voted to be a part of India and remaining 2% choose to be independent or they said that it doens't matter to them.
98%,so great,I know in the past Hitler won the vote by 99%.
Your army stayed in Sikkim,how can they vote by themselves.

The main difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is:
Buddhism:all the people are equal.
Hinduism:caste system

Buddhism spread in China and became one of main religions,and from China it spread to Japan ,Korea,Vietnam.
But in India,Buddhism declined becasue in India caste system is so important,they don't admit equality.

[bolyer]

Japanese and Korean Buddhism are Chinese Buddhism.
http://www.kantsuu.com/riben/UploadFiles/200412/20041206092004271.jpghttp://www.xueriyu.com/riben/UploadFiles_4601/200603/2006331232739280.jpghttp://www.xueriyu.com/riben/UploadFiles_4601/200603/2006331232740525.jpg

[Kabir]

Hello 靓虬客 and bolyer,

I will quote myself again:

We do not go to Chinese forums and abuse Chinese. Your post here alone shows that you (Chinese) invade into other people's space and create disturbance. This act alone shows your mental caliber and you wishfull tactics to show down Indians. I guess this would not give a very positive picture of your country. I for one would not like to visit such a country who looks down on others.

Since I'm clear of your intentions, I can call you Internet Terrorists.

Mods,

Please note, these guys here have no good intentions. There only intention is spam. They have no idea about history, niether are interested in well being of India. I request you Block the IDs of these Internet Terrorist immediately. It is nessesary for future of this forum.

Cheers

[bolyer]

Buddhism is not the only religion,China also had other religion,such as Taoism.
http://www.iha.com.cn/blog/upload/qcs03.JPG

http://www.iha.com.cn/blog/upload/qcs04.JPG

http://www.iha.com.cn/blog/upload/qyg01.JPG

http://www.iha.com.cn/blog/upload/qyg02.JPG

In fact, Taoism and Chinese Buddhism influnced each other.So Chinese Buddhism is so different from Indian.

[靓虬客]

Sikkim is a state nestled in the Himalayas. Sikkim was an independent state ruled by the Chogyal monarchy until 1975, when a controversial referendum to make it India's twenty-second state succeeded. The thumb-shaped state borders Nepal in the west, the People's Republic of China to the north and east, and Bhutan in the south-east. The Indian state of West Bengal borders Sikkim to its south. The official languages are English, Bhutia, Nepali, Lepcha, and Limboo. It must be noted though that almost all written transactions are in English. The predominant religions are Hinduism and Vajrayana Buddhism. Gangtok is the capital and largest town.
history of Sikkim (http://www.answers.com/topic/history-of-sikkim)

[observer]

Ok so the referendum result in Sikkim was 98 % so what. If India was so hegemonistic it would have made Nepal and Bhutan Indian states too but it didn't. You would have to admit that Sikkim shares cultural similarities with India. Besides China can't talk about referendums. It has never held one and it decides to settle matters using military force rather than referendums.

Yes Buddhism in China by Taoism and Confucianism but it originated in India from Hinduism. Hinduism has some social evils so Buddha didn't include them. However Buddha was a Hindu to start with and his first converts were Hindus. Also Buddhism rejected the bad practises in Hinduism but picked many good ones like non-violence (which is known in Sanskrit, the language of Hinduism as Ahimsa). In Zen Buddhism the word Zen is a how the Sanskrit word dhyaan which means meditation was made out to be. So there are many such instances. You can roughly say like Christianity emerged out of Judaism, similarly Buddhism emerged out of Hinduism. But the process was a lot, lot less violent here.

[bolyer]

Ok so the referendum result in Sikkim was 98 % so what. If India was so hegemonistic it would have made Nepal and Bhutan Indian states too but it didn't.
Butan also had close relationship to Tibet,the religion is Tibetan Buddhism,but also controlled by India,in 1949,Butan had to give its diplomacy to Inida,until now Butan visa should be sent by India.Indian influence is everywhere.

Nepal is big enough,and the founder of Buddhism was born there,it is a shrine for Buddhist,so if India occupied it, there will be great impact.

[observer]

Bhutan is willingly an Indian protectorate and do you know who is it seeking protection from? It is China. That's because no Buddhist from that region wants to be a part of China, neither in Tibet, nor in Sikkim, nor in Bhutan. Even if China had occupied Tibet since 1000 years it is still an occupation and people from there don't like being occupied. This is a common feeling amongst them.

As for Nepal it probably doesn't face any threat from China so it didn't seek Indian help that much. It's anyway a Hindu majority country and the closest culturally to India amongst all the eastern/north-eastern countries so why would India occupy it. It's a brother country. Yes Buddhism was born in Nepal but at that time there was nothing called Nepal. It was a Hindu kingdom which also covered India.

[bolyer]

Bhutan is willingly an Indian protectorate and do you know who is it seeking protection from? It is China. That's because no Buddhist from that region wants to be a part of China, neither in Tibet, nor in Sikkim, nor in Bhutan. Even if China had occupied Tibet since 1000 years it is still an occupation and people from there don't like being occupied. This is a common feeling amongst them.
I know they don't want to be conqured,no race want to be conqured,but in ancient China,war was inevitable.China is Farming civilization,while other civilization near China is Nomadic civilization,such as Mongolia,Tonggusi civilization.You know Rome was ruined by nomad.Those Nomadic civilization are militant,full of conquer desire,becasue Nomadic civilization is not stable,if weather turned bad,they had to rob Farming civilization.

You India had also been conqured by many Nomadic civilization,you know how it is,if China can't control them,they will inevitably attack China.

Though Tibet is not pure Nomadic civilization,but it still had some feature.About 800~900AD,Tibet (Chinese name is 吐蕃 ) occupied south Xinjiang(Northwest China),then threaten Tang Dynasty,they also attacked Chinese cities,in Song Dynasty(about 11~13 century),they are a serious threaten to China.

Those war occured between races,you can't judge who first attacked from result.

China is a Farming civilization,very respect hometown,family,every festival they should go home no matter how far it is.So China can't have much conquer desire,not like Nomadic civilization,they have no stable home,they always wanderer.

[India1989]

98%,so great,I know in the past Hitler won the vote by 99%.
Your army stayed in Sikkim,how can they vote by themselves.

The main difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is:
Buddhism:all the people are equal.
Hinduism:caste system

Buddhism spread in China and became one of main religions,and from China it spread to Japan ,Korea,Vietnam.
But in India,Buddhism declined becasue in India caste system is so important,they don't admit equality.

k Indian army was not present in SIkkim. They were only guarding the borders. India does the same for Bhutan now. Is Bhutan a part of India. Noooooo!! But sikkim did because their people wanted to be Indians too. So stop talking nonsense. YOu guys are giving useless points. It won't change the fact. You guys are childish. Do you have any idea of why do you think India occupied SIkkim. Man you guys are stupid. Same thing over and over again. When you don't know something don't try to prove that you know everything. Sikkim is a part of India now. I think we know more about sikkim then you guys.

And buddhism still is there in India. Millions of people are still Buddhists in India.

Hinduism has caste system. So you are saying that my religion is shit. Try saying this to a Pakistani or any Arab country. They will behead you. Just cause we are Indians we don't say anything despite what you say about any of our religions because we believe in freedom of speech. Why do you guys want to prove that you guys are good at everything

Tibet was not a part of CHina before. Why did you guys occupy it in 1949. Answer that first. THen think about other countries.

You guys already have so much area but still you want more. You guys are greedy. You also took area from Russia and also from India. GIve us our land back then come to talk about sikkim. Give us our Aksai Chin back which you occupied from us illegally and are still occupying it. Then we will talk about sikkim. Now who's occupying.

[observer]

bolyer,
Your post was interesting. Even ancient Indian society was farm based and settled and not nomadic.

[Kabir]

Now that's MUSIC to my ears. ;)

You guys already have so much area but still you want more. You guys are greedy. You also took area from Russia and also from India. GIve us our land back then come to talk about sikkim. Give us our Aksai Chin back which you occupied from us illegally and are still occupying it. Then we will talk about sikkim. Now who's occupying.

Cheers

[India1989]

lol, i see that now Chinese people are not replying. What happened proved you wrong. Proved you that you guys are the aggressors and not us.

[靓虬客]

lol, i see that now Chinese people are not replying. What happened proved you wrong. Proved you that you guys are the aggressors and not us.
That is because you are a cow, how can we human continue to play MUSIC?
lol.... :cool:

[Omni]

Oh thanks Slash, I didn't know :) your not the only one, even I didn't know that buddhism derived from Jainism in which derived from Hinduism because in one of my recollections both buddhism and Jainism branch out making different sub religions of hinduism. Buddism branches to too Maha... religion and Ther... religion. Ne ways back to the discussion...

[bolyer]

Tibet was not a part of CHina before. Why did you guys occupy it in 1949. Answer that first. THen think about other countries.
How could you say that,before 1949,Tibet was also a part of China,in Taiwan(ROC),you can see the map of ROC(Republic of China,1911~1949 in mainland).
In Qing Dynasty(1644~1911),Dalai lama should admitted by Qing,Qing also sent its minister to Tibet.

[India1989]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#Chinese_expelled

This website kinda gives you the clue that TIbet was not a part of China before.

And if you are not the aggressors then why are you still occupying a portion which belongs to India. This area is as big as Switzerland. But you guys are still occupying it.

If you are not the aggressor then give that land back to us.

[bolyer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#Chinese_expelled

This website kinda gives you the clue that TIbet was not a part of China before.

And if you are not the aggressors then why are you still occupying a portion which belongs to India. This area is as big as Switzerland. But you guys are still occupying it.

If you are not the aggressor then give that land back to us.
The main Tibetan information in West is from Russia and Britain,but they are colonizers,they wanted to to gain land.Britian wanted to expanse its colony,so it isn't surprise that Britain said that.Russia occupied 1/5 Qing's land.
India had occupied a a portion which belongs to China,as big as Nepal.You you guys are still occupying it.

[SLASH]

your not the only one, even I didn't know that buddhism derived from Jainism in which derived from Hinduism because in one of my recollections both buddhism and Jainism branch out making different sub religions of hinduism. Buddism branches to too Maha... religion and Ther... religion. Ne ways back to the discussion...

Well Gautam Buddha and Lord Mahavir came from the same region.
Jainism was a well established religion when Buddhism was not even started.
Most of the aspects of Buddhism where highly influenced from Jainism.
Mahavira was a senior contemporary of Gautama Buddha.

[SLASH]

Bolyer,
There is no such religion as Chinese Buddhism.Buddhism originated in India.

The reason why Buddhism doesn't believe in caste system is because in belonged to only Shatriyas caste(warrior class) of our ancient society.

Too bad many Chinese on this site haven't learnt anything from this beautiful religion :( . True Buddhist would never say " my religion is better than yours" but would instead say "practice your religious belief but feel free to learn mine". Looking at the violent past of East Asia I believe none of the east asian nations have followed what Buddha has taught them.

[inkink]

Dude,

I think it's kinda childish to "debate" about this kinda stuff, especially when it happened more than 40 years ago, and obviously neither your government or mine wants to change the status quo.

But if you are interested in getting some perspective, here is one:

Until 1961, India's then PM Mr. Nehru had advocated a friendly Sino-India relationship and the Five Principles of Peaceful Co-existence proposed by Chinese Premier Zhou. In 1961, however, PM Nehru ordered Indian border forces along the McMahon line to keep pushing north aggressively, inspite of strong disagreement from the Indian Army officers. Indeed, the early advancements were actually made the Indian Border Police since the army was very reluctant to execute these orders. The army took over later, however, when one of PM Nehru's remote-relative Kaul took over as the Indian Army Chief of General Staff.

From the 1960s to the 1990s, military historians from India as well as other countries have studied the 1962 war exhaustively and drew pretty much the same conclusions. It was Mr. Nehu who started a pooly-planned military adventure into a territory well controlled by China both de jure and de facto. Numerous documents including Indian Army's order transcripts have clearly established the chain of events and things invariably point to India as the initiator of the 1962 war (let me refrain from the emotionally charged word agressor). In most historical accounts of the war, the first serious incident was when the PLA wiped out an Indian Army post 3 miles north of the McMahon line, which is "deeply into Chinese territory even by India's claims" (wikipedia). It should be noted that even the McMahon line was never accepted by any Chinese government. It was secretly negotiated by Britain, India and the then local authority in Tibet, which had no legal authority to negotiate borders.

Since India has long enjoyed a freedom of speech, unlike my country China, it's surprising that many Indians choose to have a collective amnesia about what really happened in reality. Democracy alone doesn't lead to truth, so it seems.

Thanks to the internet, however, if one's willing to open up his mind, it's really easy to find decent documents on the web about what happened. Many of us Chinese have fostered the habbit of finding at least a second or third source to corroborate any information (since we don't trust our media). I highly recommend the same practice to you guys.

As an anecdotal side note, in summer 2000 I met an Indian businessman in his 60's and one of our late night chats touched upon the 1962 war. One thing that stood out from his remarks was "stupid Nehru". ;)

Go figure.

lol, i see that now Chinese people are not replying. What happened proved you wrong. Proved you that you guys are the aggressors and not us.

[inkink]

Sorry I got carried away in the last post. I've always thought it's fruitless and stupid to debate about historical ugliness. I know that some of my compatriots (mostly nationalist kids) here kinda enjoy making provocative comments and DO deserve to be taught a few lessons, but it still makes me uncomfortable when I say generalized statements about Chinese people.

So here's another similarity between India and CHina. Both countries have recently found this nationalist movement, which in some people can become almost a fever. When you look at India and CHina, we are almost on the same history trajectory. If we treat each other with trust and respect, I can envision the day when, in one Indian thinker's words:"...children yet unborn today will wonder how London ever became more important than Delhi, how Paris ever became more important than Beijing".

[Kabir]

Hello Inkink,

Thanks to the internet, however, if one's willing to open up his mind, it's really easy to find decent documents on the web about what happened. Many of us Chinese have fostered the habbit of finding at least a second or third source to corroborate any information (since we don't trust our media). I highly recommend the same practice to you guys.

Any Idiot with some disk space and internet connection can write whatever he / she wants.

The bigger question right now is..... Does it matters ??????????

Cheers

[Kabir]

Don't Worry !!! :D
"Been There, Done That, Got the Tshirt" :D

Sorry I got carried away in the last post. I've always thought it's fruitless and stupid to debate about historical ugliness. I know that some of my compatriots (mostly nationalist kids) here kinda enjoy making provocative comments and DO deserve to be taught a few lessons, but it still makes me uncomfortable when I say generalized statements about Chinese people.

[Kabir]

I guess you missed it.

If we "treat" or "do not treat"?


If we treat each other with trust and respect, I can envision the day when, in one Indian thinker's words:"...children yet unborn today will wonder how London ever became more important than Delhi, how Paris ever became more important than Beijing".

[inkink]

:rolleyes:

I believe it should be "If we treat". The logic follows:

If we be good kids,... then our future becomes better... blah blah, .... our future children will wonder why India and China were ever worse off than Europe.

So it should be "If we treat".

hehe

I guess you missed it.

If we "treat" or "do not treat"?

[inkink]

Excellent point !!

I believe we are smarter than our fathers. With all due respect, they did what they could with their knowledge and wisdom.

Now it's up to us and I think we'll get it right and make this part of the planet better.

...
The bigger question right now is..... Does it matters ??????????

Cheers

[Kabir]

Hello Inkink,

:rolleyes:

I believe it should be "If we treat". The logic follows:

If we be good kids,... then our future becomes better... blah blah, .... our future children will wonder why India and China were ever worse off than Europe.

So it should be "If we treat".

hehe

That explains. I mixed up the Past, present and future !!! :D
I agree. Should be "If we treat".

Cheers

[Kabir]

I'll drink one for this tonight !!!

Excellent point !!

I believe we are smarter than our fathers. With all due respect, they did what they could with their knowledge and wisdom.

Now it's up to us and I think we'll get it right and make this part of the planet better.

[observer]

Hi inklink,

Sorry I got carried away in the last post. I've always thought it's fruitless and stupid to debate about historical ugliness.

There's nothing wrong with your post. We can always debate about things decently but often some postings here have gotten ugly which can be off-putting.


Since India has long enjoyed a freedom of speech, unlike my country China, it's surprising that many Indians choose to have a collective amnesia about what really happened in reality. Democracy alone doesn't lead to truth, so it seems.

You see, we in India are still waiting for the official Indian history of the 1962 war which the Indian state is still sitting on after more than 40 years when the time period to open up the national archives is 30 years! We can read all sorts of write-ups by experts and by the Chinese government but with this official history piece inaccessible, a vital piece of the puzzle remains missing. Quite a few Indians are trying to get it released to the public and then we all might really know the series of events that caused the 62 war.

[India1989]

First of all the Nepal sized area which you claim is yours is actually a part of India from long time. So stop whining about it.

THen i don't want to argue about useless posts you posted. Its useless.

I hope no one replies to this childish topics like India occupies this and that. China already has a huge area so be happy with it. You are not getting anything from us. You try by force, we will also reply with force.

[Sakyamuni的信徒]

Actually Buddhism is a daughter fo Jainism which is a daughter of Hinduism :) .

Really???Can you tell me the detail,thank you

In china ,we know that the civilization of india is not sequent.

[India1989]

what do u mean by sequent.

[靓虬客]

what do u mean by sequent.
It means today India do nothing with ancient India except for the name "INDIA". :confused:

[observer]

Of course todya's India has to do a lot with ancient India. The bulk of Hindu, Buddhist, Jainist (did I miss any?) religion and culture follows from millenniums ago. Then Islamic influence came almost a 1000 years ago too and mixed seamlessly with the existing culture, mostly in North India I think. From mixing of Hindu religion and Islam , new religions were born like Sikhism. Then Christian influence is also there to a lesser extent. There are many smaller influences too.

So in India ancient civilization mixed with newer civilizations and they created mixtures as well as retained their original forms.

[globaldest]

buddhism originated in India. And Sikkim is our state. China has forcefully occupied Tibet. Tibetians doesnot want to be a part of China. thats why Honble Dalai Lama stays in India and not in China.

What was the religion of china before the occurance opf Buddhism?

[dsymr]

few people post here ,too cold,what on earth indias doing, is indias busying to feed cow???