India struggles to catch China (BBC news)

[googleabcd]

The gap between India and China is just like the gap between China and U.S
----------------------------------
By Rupert Wingfield-Hayes
BBC News, Delhi and Beijing

The rapid growth of the Indian and Chinese economies have transformed the two countries in recent years. But this prosperity has also brought other problems.


Heavy investment has turned Beijing into a modern city
I think it was in 2003, that the world suddenly woke up to China.

I am not sure what caused it to happen, what particular event or news story. I just remembered the phone in the BBC's Beijing Bureau started ringing and it has not stopped since.

Well now it is happening again and this time it is not China, it is India.

Every time you turn on the television or pick up a magazine, it is no longer the rise of China, it is now the rise of China and India.

The desire to make comparisons is understandable. Both have more than a billion people. Both are growing at 10% a year.


Delhi is an overwhelming experience. It is as if all of humanity has been squeezed into one city

There are, I suspect, many who are hoping that India, with its freedom and democracy, will win this new race to become the next economic super power. I am not so sure.

I have spent the last eight years living in Beijing, and only four days in Delhi, so comparisons are difficult.

But the few days I recently spent in India made me look at China in a new light.


'Shocking experience'


Over 15 million people live in Delhi
Delhi is an overwhelming experience. It is as if all of humanity has been squeezed into one city.

The streets groan under the weight of people. The air is filled with deafening noise and sumptuous smells.

Switch on the television and it is the same.

Between channels blasting out voluptuous Bollywood love stories and pop videos, an endless stream of news channels dissect the latest political scandals, and debauched lifestyles of the rich and famous.

Coming from China it is an almost shocking experience.

But after the initial delight at being in an open society, I started to notice other things.

Foreign tourists stared in bewilderment; locals with the resigned look of those used to waiting

The hotel was expensive and bad. In my room I searched for a high speed internet connection, a standard feature in any hotel in China. There was not one.

Then with the night-time temperature still well above 30C (86F) the power went out.

I lay for hours soaked in sweat trying, and failing, to get back to sleep and wishing I was back in Beijing where the lights never go out.

But getting back would not be easy.

Passenger queues

I looked at my plane ticket. Departure time 0315. Surely that could not be right.

I called the front desk. "That's correct sir," he said, "the airport is too small so many flights from Delhi leave in the middle of the night."

He was not joking.

My taxi struggled along the Jaipur road towards the airport.

The two-lane road was clogged by an endless convoy of lorries. Finally I arrived at Indira Gandhi International airport. Despite the hour it was teeming with people.

The queues snaked around the airport and back to where they had started.

Foreign tourists stared in bewilderment. Locals with the resigned look of those used to waiting.

I could not help feeling a sense of relief at being back in a country where things work

"Is it always like this?" I asked a man in the queue ahead of me.

"Pretty much," he sighed.

I was finally shepherded aboard the flight to Shanghai.

Next to me sat a friendly looking Indian man in shorts and running shoes.

"Is this your first trip to China?" he asked me.

"No," I replied, "I live there."

"Really," he said, his interest piqued, "what should I expect?"

"I think," I said, "you should expect to be surprised."

Jaw dropping

Six hours later, our plane taxied to a halt in front of the soaring glass and steel of Shanghai's Pudong International Airport.



In Delhi I had been shocked to see thousands of people sleeping rough on the streets every night, nothing but the few rags they slept in to call their own

As we emerged into the cool silence of the ultra-modern terminal, my new companion's jaw slid towards his belly button.

"I was not expecting this," he said, his eyes wide in wonder. "Oh no, I definitely was not expecting this".

I also found myself looking at China afresh.

Later that day as I drove home from Beijing airport along the smooth six-lane highway I could not help feeling a sense of relief at being back in a country where things work.

And it was not just the airports and roads.

Driving through a village on the edge of Beijing I was struck by how well everyone was dressed.

In Delhi, I had been shocked to see thousands of people sleeping rough on the streets every night, nothing but the few rags they slept in to call their own. Even deep in China's countryside that is not something you will see.

In Delhi I had been told of the wonders of India's new economy, of the tens of thousands of bright young graduates churning out the world's latest computer software.

I thought of China's new economy, of the tens of millions of rural migrants who slave away in factories, making everything from plimsolls to plasma televisions.

And of the same rural migrants, heading home to their villages at Chinese New Year festival loaded down with gifts, their pockets stuffed full of cash.

China is not a free society, and it has immense problems. But its successes should not be underestimated.

They are ones that India, even with its open and democratic society, is still far from matching.

[miqsh]

i admit china has been developing and hasn't yet stopped, but can u tell me what problems do u have in ur society that is not there in ours??

in our country we have the problems of terrorism from pakistan, wars by pakistan and bangladesh, illegal immigration of bangladeshis and pakis, the terrorist attacks induces communal riots and insurgency. then terrorists from other parts of the world that also despise india. then we got the corrupt democracy, and then bribery among the officials and lots of petty thefts unnoticed. and much more which doesn't come to my memory yet. :rolleyes:

so can u tell me what problems u face in the modern china. and despite all the problems india has succeeded in keeping up with u in the path of technology and has at the same time tried to look to all the problems and satisfy all the needs of the nation.

india has succeeded in making the fastest missile [ supersonic ] - Brahmos missile [thanks soumo for the info] which none of the "developed" countries have done so. :cool:

and delhi is crowded all right. but please try other cities and five star hotels for not all the hotels in india are '5 star' okay? it depends on where this moron went to.

[India1989]

I also admit China is developing and is really growing fast. China has been building skycrapers and everything possible in the world and has never stopped. China did develop.

Yeah and I also admit that things are way worse in India. But can you tell me that when India started developing. See the amount of recognition China earned in 2000 and how much it started to develop in 2000, India didn't start that yet. India hasn't started all out.

I don't think India can ever go at a pace China did.

Thanks to miqsh for saying all the problems but you want to know why.

India's railway station in Mumbai, blown up by terrorist. India has to build it again from the begining.
India's parliament was attacked, Everyday Indian authorities and busy preventing more then 20 terrorist attacks each day and trying to save people and stop hundreds of communal riots all over India so that people don't die.

When do they have time to build stupid skyscrapers. China is lucky that they are not surrounded by stupid countries as we are. We got refugees coming in all the time from all the place. Pathans from west, Sri lankans from south, bangladeshis from east and Tibetians from north.

Plus we have continous international pressure and barely any support from any country. Yeah the fastest missile were developed by us. Not even US has that kinda missile. The same missile can be used in ariplace, navy and army.

India has been developing in different areas more. Space, military, software, manufacturing etc. The thing which India didn't develop in is infrastructure.

Infrastructure is the thing which is noticed by most people. And infrastructure is the thing India deosn't have. YOu have gone through narrow roads but India is more concentrated in connecting the whole country and that's why there are 8 laned roads connecting whole India. I bet you haven't used the new national highways.

Common India has just started and they cannot go at a pace at which China is going because of all the problems. And let me mention another problem. Democracy. It has its disadvantages too. Too many protests from people. Like India was supposed to launch its spacecraft to moon a month ago but people did processions and strikes saying that don't spend money on these stupid stuffs and first do other important stuffs.

They don't realise that once they get uranium from moon there will be no power cuts too. People did strikes and riots when Indian prime minister introduced computer to India. THey said that this would cause in less jobs.

See you see this kinda problems. I bet all these doesn't exist in ur country.

[observer]

The hotel was expensive and bad. In my room I searched for a high speed internet connection, a standard feature in any hotel in China. There was not one.

Then with the night-time temperature still well above 30C (86F) the power went out.

I don't know which hotel this guy stayed in. Certainly doesn't sound like an "expensive hotel" to me unless he was swindled. I live in a middle-class apartment in Delhi which has 24x7 power back-up and a high-speed internet connection. Certainly I would expect an expensive hotel to have much more than this considering my humble self has never stayed in an expensive hotel in my life!

My taxi struggled along the Jaipur road towards the airport.

The two-lane road was clogged by an endless convoy of lorries. Finally I arrived at Indira Gandhi International airport. Despite the hour it was teeming with people.

That road may not be a 6 lane wonder but it's one of the loveliest roads I've seen and it still has work in progress all around it. I like traveling on it. I wonder what great traffic this fellow faced there at midnight. Lorries would be zipping on it at midnight and not creating a traffic jam.

That said, China is ahead of India in terms of development but it's an exaggeration to say the gap between China and India is the same as between the US and China I think. And frankly what does it matter if China is growing at the pace it is and India at the pace it is. As I've said before it's just another news story for the Westerners to make it appear like there's a race between India and China. China has developed so much with such good looking cities, amazing for China, congrats. Let's not care about these comparisons by bored news agencies who just look for things to write and let's wish all the countries of the world lead a good quality of life.

[Kabir]

HE HE HE,

He's talking about Delhi, when all the while he was in Jaipur. :D

Better he went back to China :D

Cheers

[chooo123]

This is the link to the discussion on this article's Chinese version. It's a extremly hot topic. Pity you guys can't read Chinese.

http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/Content/worldlook/1/117518.shtml

[India1989]

So what do they say in this discussion. I really want to know.

as I have said people go around insulting India and looking at their bad points. So what if we failed to launch a rocket. We have launched more the 60 in the past and we learn from our failures. Atleast we are trying and are fully capable of launching it and are among the elite 6 countries who has this kinda capabilities.

I agree that infrastructure is really bad in India. We are slow in developing it .But with all the problems we will develop slowly hopefully.

Yeah i was confused too. Why did he suddenly mentioned jaipur which is far away from Delhi.

[observer]

Actually Jaipur road may be the national highway-8 which while running through Delhi takes one to the IGI airport here. It also connects Delhi to Jaipur and that's why may be called Jaipur road. But it's a pretty nice road and most Indians would love it. Only some nose-held high Britisher like this BBC reporter would whine.

[India1989]

Is that road a narrow road or has more then 2 lanes. If it has more then 2 lanes then there's no reason to complain that its narrow.

And is it very congested.

[靓虬客]

So what do they say in this discussion. I really want to know.
lol.....Don't you think it is crap?
I have no interest to translate more!

[inkink]

Hi Miqsh and India1989

I'm a first timer here.

First of all, I've seen some of the insulting remarks toward India made by some idiot claiming to be Chinese. You know there are idiots in every nation, not to mention that I am kinda suspicious about their real nationality. You know outside the PRC-controlled terroritory there are hundreds of millions of people fluent in CHinese, including the whole population of Taiwan, Singapore, about a third of Malaysia, a huge chunk of Indonesia, Phillippines, quite a lot of people in Japan and Korea, and people scattered around the world.

Miqsh you asked an interesting question about China.

In China, we share a lot of the social and political problems India has been suffering. On the terrorism front, Muslim separatists from western China commit bus bombings and other terrorist attacks once in a while in Beijing and other cities. In Urumuqi, the capital city of Xijiang autonomous territory, terrorism has been a constant threat. Despite this, Urumuqi has enjoyed a long and sustained booming economy, which benefit people of all ethnic groups. I grew up in a major city in central-western China, where roughly 1/3 of the population are muslims. In my memory racial and religious tension has been intense from time to time.

I distinctly remember, when I was in elementary school, the Muslim community leader issued a Fatwa (authorization to kill) against an author of a book depicting Muslim life in China. This is an event very similar to the Fatwa issued against Rushdie, which outraged the entire civilized world. But due to the media control exercised in China, these issues related to separatism/terrorism were very rarely known to the outside world, until recently.

On the strategic front, China has the agonizing issue of Taiwan. This is not only a national or regional issue, but a global strategic issue, since both the US and Japan are enormously invested in Taiwan's future. In the mind of many Chinese I know, this has been the biggest strategic and political issue for the last half century, and promises to be so for the next few decades.

The Taiwan issue is also convoluted with the already problematic diplomatic relationship with Japan, a global economic power house and a regional military super power. Historical issues and sovereignty claims over the western Pacific have strained the Sino-Japan ties tremendously in the last decade and continues to be a flash point. Both sides have rattled sabers a few times recently.

North Korea is another destablizing factor that China has to contain and control. In recent years China has worked extremely hard to act as a bridge between the DPRK and the rest of the world, in order to avoid war and destruction. Besides, China has absorbed a large refugee population who have escaped the collapsed economy of DPRK.

Economically, China faces almost identical issues with India. A vast and poor population, limited resources, very poor infrastructure to start with.

Culturally, both countries have been colonized by western powers, both have long and splendid culture and history. We even share some religious philosophies. The other side of the token is, we both have inherited traditions and cultures which can get in the way of modernization at times. I have read in Indian newspapers that Indian villagers sometimes kill new born girls. Sadly the same savage practice also exist in China.

Along with our fast economical development, we have also found ourselves confronted with new problems: pollution at an alarming rate, crowded cities, bi-polarization of the wealthy and the poor, bi-polarization of the industrial and agricultural sectors, wide-spread corruption, a political system which at times finds itself at odds with the market economy, aging of the population, lack of social security and health care system, etc.

I am an engineer by trade, not an expert of sociology and don't claim to be one. The above is just my layman's observations.

i admit china has been developing and hasn't yet stopped, but can u tell me what problems do u have in ur society that is not there in ours??

in our country we have the problems of terrorism from pakistan, wars by pakistan and bangladesh, illegal immigration of bangladeshis and pakis, the terrorist attacks induces communal riots and insurgency. then terrorists from other parts of the world that also despise india. then we got the corrupt democracy, and then bribery among the officials and lots of petty thefts unnoticed. and much more which doesn't come to my memory yet. :rolleyes:

so can u tell me what problems u face in the modern china. and despite all the problems india has succeeded in keeping up with u in the path of technology and has at the same time tried to look to all the problems and satisfy all the needs of the nation.

india has succeeded in making the fastest missile [ supersonic ] - Brahmos missile [thanks soumo for the info] which none of the "developed" countries have done so. :cool:

and delhi is crowded all right. but please try other cities and five star hotels for not all the hotels in india are '5 star' okay? it depends on where this moron went to.

[observer]

Is that road a narrow road or has more then 2 lanes. If it has more then 2 lanes then there's no reason to complain that its narrow.

And is it very congested.

I find it to be one of the nicest roads in Delhi and Delhi has pretty nice roads for anywhere in India I think. It's definitely not narrow or congested and it is a 4 lane road. It's very smooth, not potholed, and a pleasure to travel on. And there's a lot of development work going on there to make the place even more prettier.

[miqsh]

to inkink,
thanks for answering my question. i see that u are also having lots of problems within the country. maybe india would have comparatively lesser problems if ours was a communist government. pollution has been and will be a major part of our lives. so what do u suggest that would be a step to limit these problems as much as possible.
and can u clarify if the chinese are giving their support to pakistan for its terrorist activities??

[SLASH]

[QUOTE=inkink]Along with our fast economical development, we have also found ourselves confronted with new problems: pollution at an alarming rate, crowded cities, bi-polarization of the wealthy and the poor, bi-polarization of the industrial and agricultural sectors, wide-spread corruption, a political system which at times finds itself at odds with the market economy, aging of the population, lack of social security and health care system, etc.

[QUOTE]

My friend you just described the problem India faces as well. Apart from the ageing population, India and China faces the exact same problems.
I am shocked to know that even China faces Islamic terrorism even though they are pro-islamic(atleast they have no conflicts with any Islamic state).

Can you please elaborate what the reasons for the communal unrest.
Is it because they aren't allowed to practice their religious belief(since China is Communist state) or is it because of some other reasons.Are you'll still facing these problems?
Also what are your views on Islamic terrorism and do you believe they are freedom fighters like many Chinese on this board believe?

If you have any questions about India do ask me :) ;) .

Cheers

[Omni]

Freedom fighters? no way the concept is wrong. More like "destructive forces" to put an end in every religion except for islam. Well dunno know much about it though to give you a convincing argument but surely if there are terrorists in a region it means economic, political and not to mention environmental instability which the blown up terrorists can't pay for instead the responsibility goes to you guys that are the residences.

[靓虬客]

I am shocked to know that even China faces Islamic terrorism even though they are pro-islamic(atleast they have no conflicts with any Islamic state).

Can you please elaborate what the reasons for the communal unrest.
Is it because they aren't allowed to practice their religious belief(since China is Communist state) or is it because of some other reasons.Are you'll still facing these problems?
China has no Islamic terrorism! Just a few splittists who claim they are Muslims.
China have muslims for 1300 years and they have their own happy life.
Today China implement a religion-free policy. Anyone can convert to any religion and also anyone can convert to an atheist freely.
The so-called communal unrest is not because they aren't allowed to practice their religious belief but is that some muslims want to take China into a Islamic country. One of their propagandisticWEB is http://www.xaislam.com/
the web have a forum which hundreds and thousands of people there. China gov just let it go freely!

[chooo123]

Chinese government used to prevent the spread of separatist's activities and stop terrorist attack at embryonic stage.
In this point of view, I agree with China's government, never acting soft to separatists.

[India1989]

All i can say is that India is infested with terrorists. China should be very happy that they don't have sad neighbours like India does.

I don't mean China and India.

Its like India is completely infected with terrorists. Everwhere there is atleast 10 of them.

[inkink]

Hi Miqsh,

Interesting comment on our "communist" goverment, although almost no one who's familiar with Chinese politics would seriously believe communism is still the ideological foundation of the current Chinese government.

It is, however, a widely held view among many China observers that the Chinese goverment does solve some social issues very efficiently, if not totally fairly, especially when compared with traditional democracies, such as India. The current Chinese administration under President Hu, however, is showing signs that it is working on promoting social equality instead of pursuing efficiency at the cost of polarizing the society.

I have no comment on whether your goverment is better than mine. I believe each country must find its own path and every nation's fate should be determined by its own people, and every nation's self-choice should be respected.

As for pollution, I believe China needs to do a better job at legislation and regulations, and more importantly, effective enforcement of exisiting environment laws and regulations. In the long term, however, I think the ultimate solution to the environmental problems lies in promoting Science and technology, and improving people's quality of life through sustainable development instead of blindly abusing the planet.

As for the diplomatic relationship between China and Pakistan, sadly there are many geopolitical factors convoluted in here.

For example, India's current strategic ally, the United States, is also a close ally of General Musharaf, and has been a major weapon provider to Pakistan for a few decades. That, however, does not prevent the United States from providing India with nuclear fuels and related technologies at the same time. Similarly, while China and Pakistan has enjoyed an amicable relationship, China and India also have tremendous commercial and political ties. For example, China has been a strong supporter for India's UNSEC permanent membership bid. China also supports an Indian diplomat to become the next UN secretary general. We also have a huge and fast increasing trade with India.

Also, although China has a pre-dominant strategic, especially nuclear advantage over India, the Chinese goverment has never showed any strategic interest in the India sub-continent in the recent decades. We are simply not interested in any territorial conflict with any neighbors. Our strategic focus is to build a balance and trust with other global powers in the region, such as Russia, US, Japan, and India, in an age when China's rise is perceived as something of a de-stablization. China has been arguably the biggest benefactor of the current global strategic and economical framework and it is in our vital interest to keep the system stable and working, instead of disturbing it.

In short, China wants stability in the relationship with our neighbors, including India.

On the other hand, with every Indian test-launch of missle, the Indian media and some India goverment officials indicate it is a show of force toward Beijing. And if you look at the designed range of those missiles, they are definitely not designed to target Pakistan. In this aspect, India's posture does nothing toward building a Sino-India relationship build on mutual trust.

However, Beijing has been by and large ignoring any Indian test missle launch, because we want to be India's friend.

So while some Indian people believe Beijing supports Pakistan to spite India, it is simply not true. Both Pakistan and India are our neighbors, and we want to be a good neighbor to both nations.

Especialy, when it comes to Sino-India relationship, I believe in order for us to build a even stronger friendship, both of our governments need to do more to build trust and good will. It cannot be done by only one side.

to inkink,
thanks for answering my question. i see that u are also having lots of problems within the country. maybe india would have comparatively lesser problems if ours was a communist government. pollution has been and will be a major part of our lives. so what do u suggest that would be a step to limit these problems as much as possible.
and can u clarify if the chinese are giving their support to pakistan for its terrorist activities??

[inkink]

Hi! Slash,

Yes! China and India are so much similar in almost every social aspect (traditions, values, religion, culture, colonial past) and we face many identical problems.

I do not think the current social unrests existing in China today are religious in nature. Most of the incidents I have heard are essentially triggered by vying economical interests, the polarization of society, and suppressive/corrupt local goverment officials.

The Uyghur separatist movement has more to do with separatism, rather than the religion of Islam. And since the Uyghur separatists often target civilian life, infrastructure and civilian goverment officials with bombing and other forms of violence, I categorize them as terrorists. In fact, some of these separatist groups are also publicly listed as terrorist groups by the United States government.
Quite a few of these separatists received military training from Al Qaeda. Some of them fought as Taliban fighters against the coalition forces led by the US in Afghanistan. The US still holds a few of these guys in Guantanamo.

The Chinese goverment does not promote any specific religion, but contrary to what's widely believed by people not-so-familiar with China, it does not suppress any religious practice or organization either. In the busiest commercial district in Beijing, you would find a famous Christian church with people worshipping every Sunday. In my hometown there is a large muslim community and muslim Mosques are some of the city's most significant landmarks.

Maybe you have heard about the Falungong incident. It has very little to do with religion either. If you have read the book "Spin the Falun" writtin by Li Hong Zhi, the founder of falungong, you would probably laugh your rear-end off and agree with me that it's a suicidal cult.

Even so, the Chinese government had allowed the Falungong to exist and practice whatever stupidity they believe in for about a decade. What really caused the clamp down on Falungong in 1998 was the group's attempt to become a political force. In 1998 the Falungong members from around the country staged a blockade around the central goverment complex in Beijing. That became the last straw that doomed the group. Today, Mr. Li Hongzhi happily lives in his New Jersey mansion with his very much worldly riches gleaned from his followers.

In my mind, the clamp down on Falungong seems a bit of an over-reaction: after all people have the right to be stupid. However, I agree, as most Chinese do, that it was a by-and-large good decision made by the government.

Back on the subject of Islam and the Jihadism:

I agree very much with 靓虬客 (which by the way, means Guy with a Beard), in that China has had a muslim population for many centuries peacefully, and that China has always had a culture of diverse religious belief systems.

I also agree with 靓虬客 to the extent that the Uyghur separatist movement has little to do with Islam, but everything to do with the political ideology of secession.

On the subject of Islam itself. It's my view that the perceived backward and violent nature of Islam really has little to do with the religion, but everything to do with the plight and the historical humiliations faced by Palestinians, Lebanese, and other Arab nations. Having been colonized, invaded and occupied by the west ourselves in our not so far history, the Chinese have a strong emotional association with and sympathy for the Palestinians and the Lebanese. As a people we still have collective memories of what it feels like to be bombed as civilians, what it feels like to be slaves in your own land. Largely for this reason our government policy and popular mentality have been traditionlly sided with the Arab nations during the many Palestine/Lebanon-Israel conflicts. Our support and sympathy for the Arab nations are based on our common colonial past of being humiliated and occupied, not because China has a pro-Islam policy per-se.

I hope this clarifies why we have Islamic separatists/terrorists at home, and support the Arab nations at the same time. It's conscience, not ideology or religion.

Having said that, I also believe that it serves no practical purpose to kill, kidnap or bomb Israeli civilians either. If anything, firing katyusha blindly into Israel has provem more harmful to Lebanese & Palestinians than it harms the Israelis. I do not believe that violence can be stopped by more violence, injustice can be rectified by more injustice. I think it's more useful and practical to try to build an economy and a normal life, rather than making meaningless threat to Israel. If we all focus on who has the right to what piece of land, the circle of violence and killing will never stop until the earth is engulfed in a huge nuclear fireball.

I do ahve a few questions for you, Slash and other Indians on this board:

- What, from the Hindu perspective, is the ultimate reason for terrorism in India?
- What goals do these terrorists/bombers want to achieve?
- In your opinion, are these achievable by what they are doing now? Are these goals achieve by any means at all?
- If you are the policy maker, are you willing to make some consessions to have peace?
- What role do you think India will play in Asia and globally in another 50 years?
- How would you deal with Pakistan? What do you think the India-Pak relationship will be like in 2050?
- What's your view of the current conflict in the middle-east? What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert? What would you do if you were Fouad Siniora? What would you do if you were Condi Rice?
- What's your view of the currently very tense China-Japan relationship?
- Do you like Chinese food?
- Have you watched any Chinese movies? Including Hongkong or Taiwan movies?







My friend you just described the problem India faces as well. Apart from the ageing population, India and China faces the exact same problems.
I am shocked to know that even China faces Islamic terrorism even though they are pro-islamic(atleast they have no conflicts with any Islamic state).

Can you please elaborate what the reasons for the communal unrest.
Is it because they aren't allowed to practice their religious belief(since China is Communist state) or is it because of some other reasons.Are you'll still facing these problems?
Also what are your views on Islamic terrorism and do you believe they are freedom fighters like many Chinese on this board believe?

If you have any questions about India do ask me :) ;) .

Cheers

[observer]

See so there is Islamic terrorism in China in the sense that the Uighurs want a separate Islamic country for themselves and carry out terrorist acts to achieve it. Also I've read many reports in Western newspapers that the Uighurs and other Muslims in China have to have government appointed religious leaders in their mosques and religious books approved by the government so they are angry at not having autonomy in all this.

inklink,
Regarding your post about China looking for stability and not looking for hostilities in the region, you see, every country tries to flex its strategic muscles around it. China does it, India does it, much smaller countries do it. Besides after 1962 the machinations in the region for many decades were such that they included Pakistan, China and the US against India. Pakistan often thought China would help it in the case of a war with India and launched wars against it. It got arms and ammunition from the US for such wars with India and archived conversations of US officials and accounts by former US diplomats reveal that the US and China often held parleys talking about how to contain India. So naturally the Indian people developed mistrust for China and believed that India is safe with an effective deterrent capability. Hence it has developed military programs with deterrence in mind. We can't really talk about others' weapons programs when the whole region is bristling with weaponry. China has loads of nukes and missiles pointing at various countries from the US to Taiwan to India. Pakistan has missiles and warheads pointing at India. So any thoughts about others' weapons development should be preceded by analyzing what prompted it in the first place ;)

[chooo123]

So what do they say in this discussion. I really want to know.

as I have said people go around insulting India and looking at their bad points. So what if we failed to launch a rocket. We have launched more the 60 in the past and we learn from our failures. Atleast we are trying and are fully capable of launching it and are among the elite 6 countries who has this kinda capabilities.

I agree that infrastructure is really bad in India. We are slow in developing it .But with all the problems we will develop slowly hopefully.

Yeah i was confused too. Why did he suddenly mentioned jaipur which is far away from Delhi.

To India1989:
here are some direct translated text Chinese people said. May lot of errors.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Author: Next station ash wolf reply date: 2006-7-25 12:05:50
hope China to be able the democracy

Author: Iguitar reply date: 2006-7-25 12:18:41
lacks the people commanding general to become the Chinese economy development the stumbling obstacle. . The political system one day cannot obtain the reform, the Chinese economy can have the danger. China is surpassed by India is only the sooner or later matter. . . Only reforms, thorough political reform. . . .

Author: Surelaw reply date: 2006-7-25 12:22:09 passed by

Author: Setupgame reply date: 2006-7-25 12:36:29
people carry on the comparison to China and India are such naturalness. They all have 1 billion above the population, every year economy grow all in 10% above

Author: Liwang3891 reply date: 2006-7-25 13:06:09
everybody thought the question too to be simple. The democratic reform first China is prosperous and powerful, otherwise, China was finished? Is the such simple question? Does a nation’s life and death, depend on such a speech? The democratic reform question is not that simple. China’s leader is not a fool. I acknowledged in basic unit, corrupt, the embezzlement, breaks the law the phenomenon too was common has even let the person despair but if could jump out these, looked from a national angle, I but actually thought these questions sooner or later could be solved. The democracy are not depend on force to reform but are developing a spot along with the economy development. I thought China now looks like a fold white paper but the economical development look like to tow this paper by hand. So long as the economy continues to develop, this paper sooner or later can pulled flat. Obviously the economy may solve the democracy problem. But the democracy not necessarily may solve the economic problem. Poor democratic countries are plenty. India is one.

Author: I come from Mars reply date: 2006-7-25 13:41:43 prefers the democracy the grass, does not want the despotic seedling.

India has been democratic for a long time, should have surpassed China according to yours logic only then? Ha-ha, said good, governs the great nation like to boil slightly fresh, must the soft fire, otherwise has bred confusion, regretted without enough time, which fool Russia had a look, but actually democratic, brought this country truly very poor, full street beggers, prostitutes, crimial, the common people have insufficient bread, this is not a very good example, so long as exists any causes the country chaotic political move all to have to be extremely careful, cannot the hugging lucky psychology rashly carry on the stride reform, I thought this kind of reform every step should be very good, first slowly starts from the basic unit to carry on the democratic reform, From village to township to county to as directly under the provincial party committee as entire country. China does not have the Indian democracy. If China equally has India’s democracy, the situation can be worse than India. China indeed needs the democracy.

The so-called democracy-solving-everything discussion simply is the nonsense talks. India’s democratic already 60 years, India has accepted the world powerful nations’ aid much bigger than China by far, whose sanction India has not received in 98 years, moreover India is an English language country, how come India behind China in many respects? On this realistic example, I did not think the democracy is the multi-purpose antidote. China's democracy construction is imperfect, may say is the unusual insufficiency, how many countries but China has in the achievement world which under the commumist leadership obtains to be allowed to compare?

Why didn'tyou guys go to comparison between China and Germany?

Looks like South Korea, developed under the despotic system, then maintains stably with the democratic system.

Knows Spain Franco the elder brother regime. How Spain got democratic?

How does the Taiwan Kuomintang get down?

Nobody cups one hand in the other across the chest to deliver the democracy?

What does Gorbachev calculate? Only thrown down the democracy from the space, pounds Russia the shock.

[chooo123]

More translation:


Is democracy = prosperous and powerful?
Same year Asian four dragons (Singapore, HK, Taiwan, Korea) all dictatorship countries time, India already was the democratic model. The democracy is not a goal, is the process. wants to manage, uses any management in any stage. We now lack of the words-power, also is the strength. The American has the words-power, he said who wrong who is wrong, do what he wants to do. Despises person which does not have the soul. Has not gone to India now all matters only to have I to see with one's own eyes only then can believe
Very obvious, in the discussion majority of people don’t oppose the democracy, but opposed "radical democracy".

Many friends all say very much understood, the democracy is good, but certainly not necessarily is suitable for the present China, it can directly cause the low efficiency, moreover in the Chinese national quality generally not high situation, the very possible government to be kidnapped by the national people, likes present the India! I am believed the Chinese democracy that one day certainly can arrive, moreover I believed we can really see that day! But that one day had to be China already initially completes modernized time!

This report writes very real. I have stayed in India a period of time, truly India also has not the superiority to China in comparison, but their English good, although the accent is strong, the good and evil also is an English.

[inkink]

Some of the western media has very much of a bi-polar disorder when it comes to anything related to China & Russia. For example, Islamic extremism when targeting America, Israel or Europe is dubbed "terrorism". When the same thing happens in Russia or China, they are simply "dissidents". We in China have coined a term for this phenomenon:"cold-war mentality".

By the same token, many European countries have a anti-semitism law, under which publications are censored for any violence-inciting material. Does that mean Muslims living in western Europe should rise up against the governments?

In China's Uyghur autonomous region, there are laws which stupilate a certain percentage of Uyghur and other ethnic groups' representation in both the executive and legislative branches of the government, as well as universities and other public institutions. This percentage is usually well above the percentage of those ethnic groups in the general population. In America this practice is called "Affirmative Action". Often deemed as a major social progress, "Affirmative Action" policy in America has a relatively short history when compared to the Chinese version, which started in the early 1950's. Have you ever read about China's affirmative action policy in any western media? I guess not.

Just another anecdotal evidence of the western media's cold-war paranoia: in the last few month a Chinese blogger famous for his pro-democracy blogging shuts his own blog down. His home page simply says "this blog is temporarily closed due to un-planned outage". In about 24 hours BBC reported the incident and concluded China's media censorship authority has forced the shut down. In about 48 hours all major western media including AP, CNN, etc. reported the same, citing tightening Chinese media censorship.

Two days later, the blog re-opened. It turned out the blogger was just sick of the western media's paranoia and decided to teach them a lesson. When journalists trained to be impartial and objective make the direct assumption of censorship from the simple phrase of "un-plnned outage", you know how deeply biased the western media is.

In short, I am not a fan of the Chinese media, but I am equally disgusted with the western media's "cold-war" paranoia.

Regarding strategic muscle. It's funny that in the past decades China felt a sense of threat and being surrounded very much similar to what you described. In fact, in 1962 PM Nehru asked the US and UK for help after being defeated by the PLA. I've also ready there was a trace of CIA influence in Nehru's decision to advance north.

It's especially interesting (I am not being sarcastic here) that India felt there's a China-US conspiracy to contain India, which from an Chinese perspective simply does not make sense. To the very contrary, from the Chinese perspective, PM Nehru changed India's "Non-alliance movement" strategic position in the 50's to a position of "Containing China" in the 60's.

In retrospect, I think the two super-powers at the time often played both sides, to gain an upper-hand over each other.

See so there is Islamic terrorism in China in the sense that the Uighurs want a separate Islamic country for themselves and carry out terrorist acts to achieve it. Also I've read many reports in Western newspapers that the Uighurs and other Muslims in China have to have government appointed religious leaders in their mosques and religious books approved by the government so they are angry at not having autonomy in all this.

inklink,
Regarding your post about China looking for stability and not looking for hostilities in the region, you see, every country tries to flex its strategic muscles around it. China does it, India does it, much smaller countries do it. Besides after 1962 the machinations in the region for many decades were such that they included Pakistan, China and the US against India. Pakistan often thought China would help it in the case of a war with India and launched wars against it. It got arms and ammunition from the US for such wars with India and archived conversations of US officials and accounts by former US diplomats reveal that the US and China often held parleys talking about how to contain India. So naturally the Indian people developed mistrust for China and believed that India is safe with an effective deterrent capability. Hence it has developed military programs with deterrence in mind. We can't really talk about others' weapons programs when the whole region is bristling with weaponry. China has loads of nukes and missiles pointing at various countries from the US to Taiwan to India. Pakistan has missiles and warheads pointing at India. So any thoughts about others' weapons development should be preceded by analyzing what prompted it in the first place ;)

[靓虬客]

chooo123, you are doing what I have done----translate Chinese into English using software. But the result is not very well, especially with many solecism.

[Kabir]

Hello Inkink,


I do ahve a few questions for you, Slash and other Indians on this board:

- What, from the Hindu perspective, is the ultimate reason for terrorism in India?


I can tell you from my prespective only. I'm not a speaker for Hindus, but a Hindu myslef. So, whatever I say is my opinion only.

Hindu, Muslim hatred palnted by British is the main reason. We have not been at peace with Pakistan since the partition times. When Pakistan failed to attack and conquer India, they started a different war, in a different mode, in the name of Kashmir. As per the agreement signed by Raja Hari Singh, Kashmir is in the domain of India. Pakistan started and continuously supported this so called "Jihaad". Every now and then we see pictures of Pakistani training camps, where our death material is prepared. India has yet not attacked Pakistan inspite of having complete proof of thier activities.
Also, every time an illegal consignment of amunition is seized by intelligence, it includes Chinese wepons in large quantities.

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2000/kashmir20001011c.html

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060724/j&k.htm

And many such more.

- What goals do these terrorists/bombers want to achieve?

Terrorists have no objectives. They are executors. The main objective as India see's it today, is Pakistan's evil will to create unrest in our country and impede our economic growth.

- In your opinion, are these achievable by what they are doing now? Are these goals achieve by any means at all?

It can never be achievable. We all leave our homes without knowing whether we will come back home safely or not. But that does not deter us from carrying on our normal lives. India has time and again shown that all these terrorist attacks would not make India kneel.

- If you are the policy maker, are you willing to make some consessions to have peace?

Who won't? But, then there should be an understanding that, "that's it". No nonsense would be tolerated after that. There should be absolute zero tolerance. Any country, then who participates in crime or terrorist activities should face wrath of the entire region.

- What role do you think India will play in Asia and globally in another 50 years?

We need to improve internaly before thinking about Asia and global affairs.
As an Indian, I want atleast the basic infrastructure to develop. Medical and education should be free and well taken care of. Erradication of any quota system or reservation based policy. High qualification to contest and stand for elections. Simple but effective tax system. Effective law enforcement agencies. The list can go on. For all of these to happen, we need to have peace, so that finance is redirected from defence to social welfare.

- How would you deal with Pakistan? What do you think the India-Pak relationship will be like in 2050?

I think it's been a high time we have been lenient with Pakistan. India should display and give deadline to Pakistan to remove all militant infrastructure and look forward for the growth of the region. If they agree, good for them. If not, India should destroy all militant outfits and infrastructure.

If India continues the way, by 2050, the situation would be the same.

- What's your view of the current conflict in the middle-east? What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert? What would you do if you were Fouad Siniora?

As Ehud Olmert, I would have probably looked at destroying only militant infrastructure and not civilian lives.
As Fouad Siniora, I would have banned and discouraged Hezbollah from attacking Israel. Any act of cowardice should be discouraged.

- Do you like Chinese food?

I just LOVE chinese food. Though, I don't know if it is actual Chinese or Indian version of Chinese food.
Chicken Dim Sums, Crispy Chicken salt and pepper, Veg Manchurian with Hakka Noodles, Hot and Sour Chicken soup are some of my favourites.

- Have you watched any Chinese movies? Including Hongkong or Taiwan movies?

I'm fan of Chinese Kung-Fu movies. Some of my favourites are "Enter the Dragon", "36 chambers of Shaolin Temples", "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", "Drunkun Master".
Then all Jackie Chan movies "Police story", "Mr. Nice Guy", "Rumble in the Bronx"..... Man I can go on.....

Cheers

[SLASH]

I do ahve a few questions for you, Slash and other Indians on this board:

[QUOTE=inkink]- What, from the Hindu perspective, is the ultimate reason for terrorism in India?
Well I'm not a Hindu(I'm a Jain) so what ever I say is just my opinion.
Excluding Kashmir most of the terrorism attacks started taking place in the regions which were economically backward.Whereever there is poverty there is terrorism be it N.E India or Central India.But now the face of terrorism is changing.They have started a parallel government and those who disagree with them are killed.You are either with them or agianst them.Recently a shop keeper and his entire family were beheaded by Naxalites(terrorist) just because the shop keeper fired a man who was a supporter of the movement.
These guys are bunch of Barbarian who want to rule the region.The government can't do much cause the people are afraid to speak against them.There have numerous events where informers have been killed.
There is no logical reasoning behind these barbaric activities.

- What goals do these terrorists/bombers want to achieve?
Terrorist in Kashmir want an independant Kashmir.The reason why India doesn't want it be alone is beacause Pakistan has an eye on it. Kashmir without India would become the new hub for Terrorist similar to Afganistan.A place where women won't be allowed to step out of their homes without the permission of their Husbands.A place where kids will be taught about islamic extremism and how people outside islam are their enemies and should suffer instead of learning Math and Science.
Terrorist Organisation across the border namely Jaiesh e Mohamadd and LeT brainwash 16-18 year old to pick up weapons and call for Jihaad against Indians.How would these kids know what is right and what is wrong?


- In your opinion, are these achievable by what they are doing now? Are these goals achieve by any means at all?
Well the answers to both the questions is quite frankly NO.
Terrorist attacks like 7/11 has only brought the country closer.The motive of 7/11 was to create communal unrest amogst the people of different communities which they failed in doing.Right after the attcks hundreds and hundreds of Muslims lined up at the blood banks to donate blood to the victims of the 7/11 blast. Hospitals received more blood than they asked for within a couple of hours.
Terrorist in Kashmir want a "free Kashmir". If this the general voice of the people in J&K it would have led to a civil war.But no, Kasmiris want to be part of India. You can judge your self.Where is Kasmir better of?In an economically and socially failed state of Pakistan or a democratic,free and economically vibrant state of India.Look at what Pakistan did to Bangladesh(for those who don't know,Bangladesh used to be part of Pakistan).As long a large majority of muslims are pro India a couple of these douchebag can't do a shit to India.Just to show you what would India occupied Kasmir will be under Pakistan.Check this out http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1833219.cms

- If you are the policy maker, are you willing to make some consessions to have peace ?

I don't know what you mean by consession.
If you mean giving up our land in the hands of few idiots than No.The reason are the ones i've mentioned above.Kashmir would become similar to what Afganistan was under the Taliban rule.
If you mean making it easier for the people who picked up arms to surrender than India is already doing it.Not only are the people being given pardon but also given jobs and some money to carry on with their lives(this depends whether they have commited any crimes.None of them are sentenced to death).

- What role do you think India will play in Asia and globally in another 50 years?

I think their has been enough said about India's future so need not say much about it. As kabir pointed out we need to fight the internal problems that the country faces.

- How would you deal with Pakistan? What do you think the India-Pak relationship will be like in 2050?
In think Pakistan will destroy itself well before 2050.They something and do something else.How can have relations with such neighbours?

- What's your view of the current conflict in the middle-east? What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert? What would you do if you were Fouad Siniora? What would you do if you were Condi Rice?
There is an old saying "If you play with fire you will get burnt".The middle-eastern countries are themselves to blame for all this.Contrary to what you said it is Jews not Arabs who have been humilited and torchered throughout history.Whereever Jews went they were hated by everyone.For the first time they given a home where they live peacefully without being hated.They were given a piece of land in the desert(without oil I might add) and were happy with it.It wasn't the jews who asked for that piece of land ,it was the Brits who gave them. It is the middle-eastern countries who want to wipe Isreal off the map not the other way round. Isreal is land locked with enemies all around it. Why do these same people who celebrate everytime Isreal is bombed agitate when someone from their own community is killed?Do you expect Israel to keep getting their civilians killed and never take actions?
Fouad Siniora can't do anything now.He didn't do much when he was asked to.Condi Rice can just hope that this thing would end as quockly as possible.The longer it takes worser it'll get.

- What's your view of the currently very tense China-Japan relationship?
Both countries have some valid arguements over the Taiwan .Very dificult for me to pick a side.Japan is heavily invested in Taiwan and also I believe has good diplomatic relations.On the other hand Taiwan was part of China before Japan invaded it.


- Do you like Chinese food?
Since I'm a strict vegetarian I stick to Chinese Noodles,Rice and Munchurian :D.


- Have you watched any Chinese movies? Including Hongkong or Taiwan movies?
I get old Chinese movies every night on cable(starring Jet Lee or Jackie Chan):). I enjoy Jet Lee and Jackie Chan in English movie more.I never miss to see movies these two guys.I loved Shaolin Soccer,Crouching tiger hidden dragon and a bunch of other movies who's names I cant remember :).

[observer]

inkink,
My answers to most of the questions you asked are a lot similar to what's been posted by Indians above so I will answer your one question on which I have a different viewpoint.

You asked --
- What's your view of the currently very tense China-Japan relationship?

In my opinion the Chinese government is rabble-rousing and instigating the Chinese people over a half a century to a century old issue. I know China was colonized by Japan and they did more barbaric things than the British or anyone else. But I think becoming very angry over it, demonstrating, rioting and worse is excessive reaction on the part of the Chinese people after so many decades. I feel the Chinese government is instigating Chinese people with a strategic view to maybe bully Japan or to take away the people's attention from domestic issues like political freedom, social inequalities - any domestic problems that may endanger the reign of the government there.

So I think China and Japan shouldn't have tense relations and get over negative feelings which are more than half a century old. Of course it should press Japan to admit to its atrocities and apologise for them but open hostilities is a disproportionate way to go about it I think. China should instead focus on stability in East Asia and contribute towards making the region even more developed than it is now. After all wartime Europe has gotten over its mutual hostilities and is one of the most developed regions today.

[googleabcd]

I need to correct your opinion:
China was never colonized by Japan. Though Japanese occupied some area of China during World War II, the war between China and Japan never stopped during that period.

War is different than Colony

inkink,
My answers to most of the questions you asked are a lot similar to what's been posted by Indians above so I will answer your one question on which I have a different viewpoint.

You asked --


In my opinion the Chinese government is rabble-rousing and instigating the Chinese people over a half a century to a century old issue. I know China was colonized by Japan and they did more barbaric things than the British or anyone else. But I think becoming very angry over it, demonstrating, rioting and worse is excessive reaction on the part of the Chinese people after so many decades. I feel the Chinese government is instigating Chinese people with a strategic view to maybe bully Japan or to take away the people's attention from domestic issues like political freedom, social inequalities - any domestic problems that may endanger the reign of the government there.

So I think China and Japan shouldn't have tense relations and get over negative feelings which are more than half a century old. Of course it should press Japan to admit to its atrocities and apologise for them but open hostilities is a disproportionate way to go about it I think. China should instead focus on stability in East Asia and contribute towards making the region even more developed than it is now. After all wartime Europe has gotten over its mutual hostilities and is one of the most developed regions today.

[SLASH]

I need to correct your opinion:
China was never colonized by Japan. Though Japanese occupied some area of China during World War II, the war between China and Japan never stopped during that period.

War is different than Colony

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Japan capture 2/3 of China in WW II.
And you right Japan never colonized China.
Its a shame to see how by colonial influence Japan which once treated China like a bigger brother(coz they were influenced immensely by Chinese culture) turned hostile against them.

[chooo123]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Japan capture 2/3 of China in WW II.
And you right Japan never colonized China.
Its a shame to see how by colonial influence Japan which once treated China like a bigger brother(coz they were influenced immensely by Chinese culture) turned hostile against them.

Japanese only took advantage of the weakest period in China's history (When China had a decade of civil war) to invade China, but China has never been fully colonized by any country. Finally China defeated Japan with the help of Allied countries. Actually Japan is a really loser in WWII. See even now Japan is more like USA's colonized country and has little political influenence in the world even it is the second strongest ecomomic country.

[inkink]

Thanks Kabir, Slash and Observer for your perspectives on the questions I asked.

I think the fundamental problem with terrorism is for people to realize: it's more important to build a meaningful and prosperous life, rather than struggling for ideology or a piece of land. If we can all compete in business, technology and science rather than in an arms race, bombing and attacks, things will work out themselves.

For this reason I think the world's more successful nations have the moral responsibility to help the others see and appreciate this point. For example, I think Israel and the US should help Palestinians build schools, take Palestinian students into their universities, and help Palestinians build an economy. When Israel has more Nasdaq listed companies than any other country except the US, while Palestinians can't even manufacture a light bulb, when Israelis work in global companies and export silicon chips, while Palestinians can only make patato chips, the struggle will simply not cease to exist.

Here is a wild idea but I want to know what you guys think: In my mind, India simply does not have the capability to solve the Kashmir/Pakistan issue militarily. Look, if the US has no effective means to stop the Iraqi insurgency and Israel cannot eradicate even Hamaz not to mention Hezbollah, how possible is it that India can stop Islamic terrorism with military means? On the other hand, with India's success in the IT service industry, why doesn't the Indian government invest in Kashmir and get into some joint-ventures in Pakistan? Ultimately people all want to make a good living. When people start believing they can have a better life with dignity and decency by typing keyboards rather than pulling triggers, violence will stop and peace will prevail.

Just my two cents.

[inkink]

Slash,

You have totally misunderstood Japan's role in Taiwan. Japan has no legitimate claim over Taiwan in any way shape or form. In fact Japan itself has never made any claim on Taiwan ever since the end of WWII.

Not only that, the Japan-Taiwan relationship is a complicated one. One one hand, some people view Japan as a friendly democracy. On the other hand, many people still have painful memories of Japanese occupation. In fact you may have heard about the territorial conflict over the Diaoyu Island between China and Japan. Some Taiwanese are a lot more vocal than even Chinese in their advocacy of CHina's sovereignty over the island.

[observer]

Here is a wild idea but I want to know what you guys think: In my mind, India simply does not have the capability to solve the Kashmir/Pakistan issue militarily. Look, if the US has no effective means to stop the Iraqi insurgency and Israel cannot eradicate even Hamaz not to mention Hezbollah, how possible is it that India can stop Islamic terrorism with military means? On the other hand, with India's success in the IT service industry, why doesn't the Indian government invest in Kashmir and get into some joint-ventures in Pakistan? Ultimately people all want to make a good living. When people start believing they can have a better life with dignity and decency by typing keyboards rather than pulling triggers, violence will stop and peace will prevail.


India never wanted or wants to solve any problems militarily, not even Kashmir. It is Pakistan that has always made military thrusts into Kashmir while India defended. Kashmir left to India without Pakistani interference will develop like any other Indian state. And Kashmiris should understand this too and embrace development rather than the gun. But unfortunately Pakistan isn't too bothered with development it appears and just creates troubles always and the Kashmiris tow their line. It's really a matter of driving the whole idea into the brains of the Pakistanis and Kashmiris that talking with guns only stifles development.

So I hope some political solution is found without violence and Kashmir develops like Ireland today which having overcome decades of a lot of violence is another IT powerhouse in the world!

[India1989]

Here is a wild idea but I want to know what you guys think: In my mind, India simply does not have the capability to solve the Kashmir/Pakistan issue militarily. Look, if the US has no effective means to stop the Iraqi insurgency and Israel cannot eradicate even Hamaz not to mention Hezbollah, how possible is it that India can stop Islamic terrorism with military means? On the other hand, with India's success in the IT service industry, why doesn't the Indian government invest in Kashmir and get into some joint-ventures in Pakistan? Ultimately people all want to make a good living. When people start believing they can have a better life with dignity and decency by typing keyboards rather than pulling triggers, violence will stop and peace will prevail.

Just my two cents.

If India wants India can solve the Kashmir issue in 2 weeks militarily just like it did in 1971. But India is a peaceloving country. India believes in peace more then any other country in the world. So India doesn't attack anyone. India could've occupied the whole kashmir in 1999 itself but India refrained from crossing the LOC.

And about your last sentence let me tell you, when you are being attacked its better to pull trigger rather then getting killed.

And yeah to what choo said, there are many things wrong in that article. India got sanctions more then China did. Who said India didn't get sanctions for 98 years. India got sanction in the year 1998 for testing nuclear weapons. But still India didn't move back and from that time onwards India's real development started. India made all these satelites by itself with no foreign help.

WHen British left India they took all our resources and all our things. Atleast China didn't lose their resources. According to the estimates the amount of thing Britishers took away from will amount to UK pound 1 trillion according to today's value. Can you imagine what would happen if we have those money now.

[India1989]

- What, from the Hindu perspective, is the ultimate reason for terrorism in India?

The ultimate reason for terrorism in India are many. Pakistan fought 4 wars with us and lost all four. But they somehow want to take away kashmir from us. So the only way they could do this is by hiding and attack and by the means of terrorism. So Pakistan funded terrorism. The ultimate reason for terrorism in India from the Indian perspective(not only hindu) is that they are jealous of India and Pakistan wanting Kashmir back and Islamic terrorist thinking that Hindus are oppressing Muslims in India.

- What goals do these terrorists/bombers want to achieve?

The aim of these terrorist is simple. They want to balkanise India and make India bleed so bad that they give up Kashmir and accept defeat. They want to not only take away Kashmir but also take away Punjab, Nagaland, Assam, and two huge parts in north India and South India which will be made homeland for Indian muslims which will be a separate country. They want to destroy us.

- In your opinion, are these achievable by what they are doing now? Are these goals achieve by any means at all?

Well this question is hard to answer. By what they are doing now the spirit of India is rising and they can't separate us. But if they increase their works and Indian govt. doesn't take any action then it is quite possible. ANother main reason is because India is divided. THere has been Hindu-muslim, Hindu-sikh, muslim-christian riots in India before. So we have to be united. But i would say that it is very impossible. I hope its impossible. I don't want to be so sure. I don't want to be overconfident and underestimate the terrorists.

- If you are the policy maker, are you willing to make some consessions to have peace?

If i was a policy maker i would never go for peace now. HOw much more can India take. An attack on 2 of our temples, on the largest mosque of India, on India parliament, on Indian trains, buses, hijacking of our planes, breaking our unity. We should never let this escalate. We should act fast and when we act we should act hard.

- What role do you think India will play in Asia and globally in another 50 years?

India right now doens't play that a big role. I think China plays a bigger role in Asia. But in coming 50 years India will be one of the major role players in Asia and also in the world.

- How would you deal with Pakistan? What do you think the India-Pak relationship will be like in 2050?

I would deal hard with Pakistan. I would attack them and show them that they have terrorist camps in POK. Once we get the POK then i will stop attacking. But still before attacking i will give them ultimatum. if they don't agree then i would attack them. They are playing a cold war with us just like USA did in USSR. I would play a cold war too and fuel the uprising in Pakistan. in 2050 there will be no change in our relationship. They will never learn to live in peace.

- What's your view of the current conflict in the middle-east? What would you do if you were Ehud Olmert? What would you do if you were Fouad Siniora? What would you do if you were Condi Rice?

Current conflict in middle east is no suprise. They are always in a mood to fight. They can never live in peace. i have no idea of what i would have done in Ehud Olmert or Fouad Siniora. But if i was COndi rice then i would kill myself.

- What's your view of the currently very tense China-Japan relationship?

Right now i think it has no chance of esaclating into a war. But i would ask Japan to cool down cause their military is not that a match to China. I basically have no idea about the tense relationship.

- Do you like Chinese food?

Yup i love Chinese food but Indian style. Chinese style is too bland. Indian style adds more spices and i anyways love them. THey are great.

- Have you watched any Chinese movies? Including Hongkong or Taiwan movies?

Hats off to Chinese movies. I have watched few and I love them. I think Chinese movies are equally a match to Hollywood. THey are fantastic. I simply love them. They are very touching.


PS: My answers were unbiased and have referrence to many newspaper and articles. The opinion questions are my opnions though.

Before any Indians disagree with my answers i would like to say that some are my opinions and you can't change it and some are facts which also you can't change.

[yyzrush]

First of all I am a noob here....
Second I doff my hat to all you guys.Out of all the forums I have visited I am yet to see one which has so much of intellect and depth in the discussion.It is just not another mud slinging debate.
My question to everyone is " Is it fair to compare India and China?One a democracy another a communist.One which gave Buddhism and the other who followed it?
Little did this correspondent know what a debate his article will ignite.Just Google this topic and you will see what I mean.
I have been to both countries and I have seen the ups and down in both countries.The positives of is the negative of the other.Precisely why I feel both are progressing but in their own stride and direction.The path taken is different and so this comparison is not fair?
I like the infrastructure/the facade/the nice outlook of China.
I like the free spirit of the Indian People.The philosophy that they so readily share and follow(You will know what I mean when you speak to one).Above all I like Indian wome if all of them look like Priyanka Chopra/Shilpa Shetty(I wish I could befriend one).It seems Chocolate is my obsession and the Indian women being chocolate tastes the best.

[Silverbackman]

The reason why India is behind China right now is because China finished reforming their market system to a more capitalist system. India still needs make their nation capitalistic and then India will easily surpass China. China has a nedge because it is more capitalistic.

Did youi guys know in the early 1980s India was ahead of China in GDP and per capita. China was still very repressed from Mao's socialist policies but by later 80s China reformed quickly. China still has long way to go before becoming like Hong Kong but they are doing good.

The only way India can become a major player is if they completly abolish all these socialist programs and become mroe capitalistic. Then China will stand little chance. India has a huge population boom and a large young workforce while China's "one child policy" is dooming the country to begin with. All India needs to do is become more capitalistic.

[India1989]

yup china's sure doing good.

[Jonathan]

So what do they say in this discussion. I really want to know.
They were having a long, rational and diverse Chinese discussion on the merits of democracy for China to continue its economic development. The majority supported democracy, but differed on its implementation and the timing. No one was insulting the Indians in the discussion. Yes, we Chinese are not closed-minded communists. We are well aware of the faults of our country, but we also realize there are many merits to our system.

The Chinese are results-oriented people. We believe in whatever that works. If capitalism works, then we will embrace it. This is the basis of our mindset.

[snower]

Jonathan , 不能同意你的这个观点 :
The Chinese are results-oriented people. We believe in whatever that works

中国自古就有 “义” 与 “利” 之辩。 主流中国思想是重义而轻利的。 你这样说完全是把中国文化给庸俗化了。 自邓小瓶以来的实用主义思想， 不过是伟大的主流中国精神之外一种补充， 一种“权宜”， 而不是中国文化的本质。 We believe in whatever that works ??? 这不是有奶就是娘吗? 这样说。 置文天祥于何地? 置伯夷叔齐于何地?

[Jonathan]

Jonathan , 不能同意你的这个观点 :
The Chinese are results-oriented people. We believe in whatever that works

中国自古就有 “义” 与 “利” 之辩。 主流中国思想是重义而轻利的。 你这样说完全是把中国文化给庸俗化了。 自邓小瓶以来的实用主义思想， 不过是伟大的主流中国精神之外一种补充， 一种“权宜”， 而不是中国文化的本质。 We believe in whatever that works ??? 这不是有奶就是娘吗? 这样说。 置文天祥于何地? 置伯夷叔齐于何地?
In Chinese civilization, the king is always before the sage, although the sage is more famous (and romanticized). Also, a sage only becomes famous when his ideas work under the implementation of the king.

Ideology has always been in the back burner. Many leaders of the Communist Party during the 1950s had a very poor understanding of Communism, most could not summarize Das Kapital or Tolstoy. They just wanted to get the country united and working, and the simple slogans of Communism worked in achieving that, at least initially in the 1950s.

You should read this BBC article again. The basic generalization is that China works, India doesn't. The reason is simple, results come before empty ideals. Ideals may serve as a guide in our implementation, but it should never be used to substitute failure. Failure is failure is failure, regardless of how you color it. Biological life is Darwanian, why shouldn't society be also?

My interpretation has always been that we Chinese use ideals to justify and implement the results we seek. In this sense we are very American. Look at the American neoconservative (新保守主义) movement. The Americans thought neoconservatism was a good idea, but ultimately it was a failure in that it cannot be effectively implemented. The idea was a failure. Iraq War has been a failure. Consequently, the American people adjust their beliefs and elect the Democrats to Congress. Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were Chinese failures, we Chinese have denounced them today and moved on. We are adapative and we should always remain adaptive. The goal is to strengthen our country, make China a leading economic, political and militarial power in Asia and the world.

[snower]

夥计， 大概同印度人相比， 中国人是比较功利一些。 但是和西方人和日本人比起来， 中国人是比较泛道德化的。 中国的文化大概介于这两者之间吧。中国的模式经 常是“道德为体，功利为用”。 一阴一阳， 对立统一。比如当前的“社会主义为体， 资本主义为用” 的社 会模式， 呵呵。 另外， 还是不同意failure is failure 的观点。 文天祥的 死， 是失败还是胜利? 蒙古人不能降服文天祥， 只好杀了他， 是失败还是胜利? 恐怕不能简单的回答。 蒙古人的帝国今安在? 罗马人， 匈奴人的呢? 而中华绵延万古。西方和蒙古日本信奉丛林法则， 纯以功 利行事， 是至阳之道。 印度人是冥想不干活， 是至阴之道。 中国的长处是中庸， 所以历久不衰， 前程远大。 可见， 只有理想主义是不够的， 但是没 有理想主义， 也是不行的。�

[Kidd Lean]

we all love peace, and friendly to all countries. :)

[Neo]

In Chinese civilization, the king is always before the sage, although the sage is more famous (and romanticized). Also, a sage only becomes famous when his ideas work under the implementation of the king.

Ideology has always been in the back burner. Many leaders of the Communist Party during the 1950s had a very poor understanding of Communism, most could not summarize Das Kapital or Tolstoy. They just wanted to get the country united and working, and the simple slogans of Communism worked in achieving that, at least initially in the 1950s.

You should read this BBC article again. The basic generalization is that China works, India doesn't. The reason is simple, results come before empty ideals. Ideals may serve as a guide in our implementation, but it should never be used to substitute failure. Failure is failure is failure, regardless of how you color it. Biological life is Darwanian, why shouldn't society be also?

My interpretation has always been that we Chinese use ideals to justify and implement the results we seek. In this sense we are very American. Look at the American neoconservative (新保守主义) movement. The Americans thought neoconservatism was a good idea, but ultimately it was a failure in that it cannot be effectively implemented. The idea was a failure. Iraq War has been a failure. Consequently, the American people adjust their beliefs and elect the Democrats to Congress. Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were Chinese failures, we Chinese have denounced them today and moved on. We are adapative and we should always remain adaptive. The goal is to strengthen our country, make China a leading economic, political and militarial power in Asia and the world.

Nothing is worse than half baked philosophy. Unfortunately you have poured lot of that here. First let me counter your points and then we will approach your "ideal" grounds.

you say china works, india doesn't. Well let me rephrase, china works like UK works but India works in its own way. Tell me what parameters you use to justify that India doesn't work. If you want to compare India with China which began its reform process 2 decades later than i will compare you to Japan and I can say China is third world.

The difference between China and India is that China ape's the west, India doesn't. See your landscape. You are proud to declare that your modern cities look like european ones. Well, let me tell you this. In this ultra modern cities you will not have places for the poor chinese. I don't think you will have a separate highway for the cycle borne chinese people. You are just fantasising that with development everyone will have a car. In India we are practical, we already talk of talking growth to the villages and providing better living conditions for the poor in cities.

Let me put it this way by an analogy. China is like a kingdom of ants, where the role of every one is predefined and so is the way in which the colony grows. India is less organised and more intutive. Thats why despite 50 years of your so called not working democracry, we are not very far from China.

The same BBC has 100s of articles favoring India as an investment destination so lets not focus on a 3rd party's lip service to understand our realities. Its true that India is behind China but then as I said its unfair to compare India and China because China had a head start 20 years before India. In fact, its a fact to be proud of for India if the giant neighbour is compelled to compare itself to us even though it started much earlier.

Your thinking of applying darwinian theory to society brings out one fundamental flaw in chinese mindset that i have noticed. you believe in "only china". Most chinese are living the dream that somehow 20 years later China will be a superpower ahead of all the other countries in the world, much like US is today.

Darwin talked about evolution. You have failed to realise that. You are just following what west has already shown and now want to repeat the mistakes of west in the 21st century by looking for domination.

India on the other hand talks of growth for all. No wonder US now offers a nuclear deal outside the NPT to india exclusively. West realises that china is like a huge machine but its the emotional quotient that is missing and thats where India fills in the gap.

I would cite the annexation of Tibet by china, anti Japan riots, threats to Taiwan as examples of this "me only" mindset china has. Let me remind you, every one with this mindset has grown like a mushroom but fallen like a meteorite. The last example was Nazi Germany.

They also justified their actions by their self proclaimed "ideals".

[India1989]

Who said India doesn't work. India does work and i think India works really good. If there was any other country and i mean any other country in India's position they would be able to stay united only for 3 years that's it. Or even less then that. Forget developing. They would not be able to stay as a single country.

example, there's no diversity in Europe and still they have broken up so many times. There's more difference between a Punjabi and a Naga then between a British and Russian. India's doing really good.

[Agra]

Neo is quite a gentleman.

I would cite the annexation of Tibet by china, anti Japan riots, threats to Taiwan as examples of this "me only" mindset china has. Let me remind you, every one with this mindset has grown like a mushroom but fallen like a meteorite. The last example was Nazi Germany.
They also justified their actions by their self proclaimed "ideals".

You like to accuse China of annaxaton of Tibet while conveniently forgetting India's annaxation of Sikhim and de facto annaxation of Kashimir. Isn't that cheeky double standard?

I am always amazed at the fact that India could hold together for so long given its diversity. Democracy sometimes works wonders in India.
It may also be due to democracy that you have a weak government unable to carry out any big projects quickly because of some petty concerns.

One thing India did well was the mandatory use of LPG for all city buses and taxis in New Delhi, a major step to lower CO2 emmission. China needs to learn it from India.

[Neo]

Neo is quite a gentleman.


You like to accuse China of annaxaton of Tibet while conveniently forgetting India's annaxation of Sikhim and de facto annaxation of Kashimir. Isn't that cheeky double standard?


yeah? but we don't have people running out and seeking asylum in other countries fearing the government of india. if tibet is such a nice place to live in for the tibetans why is the dalai lama in exile? as far as i know he is a religious leader.

i was only reacting to someone's comments on india. trust me i have nothing against china or its development. i would be more than happy to see china a developed country. what i don't understand is the attitude of some chinese on this forum who think that china should be the only developed country in south asia. they still believe in the unipolar world theory when the rest of the world has moved over to the multipolar scene.

[Agra]

yeah? but we don't have people running out and seeking asylum in other countries fearing the government of india. if tibet is such a nice place to live in for the tibetans why is the dalai lama in exile? as far as i know he is a religious leader.

i was only reacting to someone's comments on india. trust me i have nothing against china or its development. i would be more than happy to see china a developed country. what i don't understand is the attitude of some chinese on this forum who think that china should be the only developed country in south asia. they still believe in the unipolar world theory when the rest of the world has moved over to the multipolar scene.

How do you explain the fact then that foreign tourists are flooding to Tibet while the border regions occupied by India e.g. Sikhim, are a forbidden land for foreign tourists?

It is studip to believe that China should be the only developed country in south Asia which has traditionally be a the sphere of influence of India. I do not think China has any interest in challenging India hegemony in that part of the world.

[Neo]

How do you explain the fact then that foreign tourists are flooding to Tibet while the border regions occupied by India e.g. Sikhim, are a forbidden land for foreign tourists?

It is studip to believe that China should be the only developed country in south Asia which has traditionally be a the sphere of influence of India. I do not think China has any interest in challenging India hegemony in that part of the world.

is that the reason why tibetans are fleeing tibet? how do u explain the recent footage of chinese soldiers shooting dead 2 tibetans out of a group of 72 trying to cross over to india, where they come to learn about their culture. and no its not indian propaganda, these killings where shot by a romanian tv crew and if u want i can send u footage of the same.

lets admit it. china's policy or india's policy is too big for small time guys like us to understand so lets not make wild guesses. i am not talking about what is the intention of hu jintao is. i am talking about the attitude of common chinese who have not an iota of influence in china's foreign policy talking as if they frame the policies. and these chinese have an attitude problem because they sound to me like overzealous. in every thing they say they sound like rooting for a super power china in the future like usa is today. sadly for them, they are mistaken. thats what i meant by a multipolar world.

[googleabcd]

The 16,000 taxi and 7,000 buses in Guangzhou already use LPG. So far as I know, Guangzhou is the currently the city has largest number of LGP buses in the world. I don't even need to mention the moderm metro system in Guangzhou.

Besides, other chinese Cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen are also head to this way. I don't think using LPG is a big archivement, kind of normal stuff.

One thing India did well was the mandatory use of LPG for all city buses and taxis in New Delhi, a major step to lower CO2 emmission. China needs to learn it from India.

[chinesemilitaryfan]

is that the reason why tibetans are fleeing tibet? how do u explain the recent footage of chinese soldiers shooting dead 2 tibetans out of a group of 72 trying to cross over to india, where they come to learn about their culture. and no its not indian propaganda, these killings where shot by a romanian tv crew and if u want i can send u footage of the same.
.
NEO: You can have a try to cross the border line between india and your neighbour country without a permit.I am sure you will also be shot probaboly also without alarm.

[Neo]

NEO: You can have a try to cross the border line between india and your neighbour country without a permit.I am sure you will also be shot probaboly also without alarm.

question is why will someone cross the boundry without permit ? do u give permit to tibetans ? :D

[chinesemilitaryfan]

Neo: Don't get mad.I think the people who are going to india needs a visa issued from india side,not china.Even people with visa also need to go through coustom office(or check point) ,not just madly cross the boderline.You are abroad,you know this.
So it is not chinese goverment to give them permit.
I don't think indian goverment can give them visa.Inida almost set all the boder region adjacent to china side as forbiden area.Even torisum visa( The lowest class) can not be issued.So now the people(Chinese,forein visiters) in tibet can only visit neplle.
For chinese people,It is impossible to enter india from tibet legally.Also,maybe you dn't know how hard for chinese to apply a indian visa from your Peijing ambbasy.I dn't know why.It is very easy for indian people to get chinese visa.I saw many indian people in my city.Exspecially,a lot indian students are studying in my city.

[Neo]

Neo: Don't get mad.I think the people who are going to india needs a visa issued from india side,not china.Even people with visa also need to go through coustom office(or check point) ,not just madly cross the boderline.You are abroad,you know this.
So it is not chinese goverment to give them permit.
I don't think indian goverment can give them visa.Inida almost set all the boder region adjacent to china side as forbiden area.Even torisum visa( The lowest class) can not be issued.So now the people(Chinese,forein visiters) in tibet can only visit neplle.
For chinese people,It is impossible to enter india from tibet legally.Also,maybe you dn't know how hard for chinese to apply a indian visa from your Peijing ambbasy.I dn't know why.It is very easy for indian people to get chinese visa.I saw many indian people in my city.Exspecially,a lot indian students are studying in my city.

my friend,u missed the point completely here. we are not discussing visa process we are discussing freedom. if tibetans had religious freedom in tibet, they would not attempt to cross the border. right?
nor would there be tibetan refugees trying to flee china. correct?
i read that tibetans come to india to study and go back to tibet. obviously these are poor people who can't afford a flight, paper work and proof of sustenance while being in india.
i would understand if china attempted to restrain outsiders crossing over into chinese territory but to shoot people leaving china that too civilians just going to study is a shame. what is china scared of? these people will not come back or that they will bring new ideas with them?
whats sad is that you are justifying these killings. even nationalism should have limits my friend.

[chinesemilitaryfan]

Neo: There are many reasons for a people to cross a broder line illegally.Not only freedom of religion.You ..you..,I don't know how to treat you on your extreme ideas.
It is your ligic: Border line is only used to restrain entering not used to restrain exiting?In my understanding,border line is a invisible wall it should restrain both. I don't justify killings,but if I am facing someone who possibly hide a gun under his cloth,what I will do?Tibetian extremer do have guns.Pls, don't mention your reason again"China occupied tibet, so tibetian people rebell".Even your indian goverment has officially announced 10 years ago that tibet is one part of china,so pls, stop this argument. The Tibetian extremers are just like the terrorists in your country. You have so many policeman armed with AK-47 patrolling in your capital(it looks very horrible), You have so many pillboxs protected with sandbags in your capital(also horrible). What these for?The same purposes that the chinese solders are doing on the borderline.
Last,poor people who can't afford a flight, paper work and proof of sustenance also can't cross the borderline illegally.In your logic, the customs office(or check points) is only set for the educated people who are not poor?Funny.Maybe in india ,the poor people have the right to cross the borderline illegally,but in china,poor people don't have this right.
But in the border areas between china and Vienam , laos , russia , N.K , mogolia,people sometime can cross the borderline without disturbance.Because,all these countries don't have forbiden areas toward china.So the regulation is not so strick.
By the way,I don't undrstand why india forbid the areas towards china? It sounds like indian goverment is still holding some cold war concepts.It should not be done by a so-called democratic country.

[Neo]

Neo: There are many reasons for a people to cross a broder line illegally.Not only freedom of religion.You ..you..,I don't know how to treat you on your extreme ideas.
It is your ligic: Border line is only used to restrain entering not used to restrain exiting?In my understanding,border line is a invisible wall it should restrain both. I don't justify killings,but if I am facing someone who possibly hide a gun under his cloth,what I will do?Tibetian extremer do have guns.Pls, don't mention your reason again"China occupied tibet, so tibetian people rebell".Even your indian goverment has officially announced 10 years ago that tibet is one part of china,so pls, stop this argument. The Tibetian extremers are just like the terrorists in your country. You have so many policeman armed with AK-47 patrolling in your capital(it looks very horrible), You have so many pillboxs protected with sandbags in your capital(also horrible). What these for?The same purposes that the chinese solders are doing on the borderline.
Last,poor people who can't afford a flight, paper work and proof of sustenance also can't cross the borderline illegally.In your logic, the customs office(or check points) is only set for the educated people who are not poor?Funny.Maybe in india ,the poor people have the right to cross the borderline illegally,but in china,poor people don't have this right.
But in the border areas between china and Vienam , laos , russia , N.K , mogolia,people sometime can cross the borderline without disturbance.Because,all these countries don't have forbiden areas toward china.So the regulation is not so strick.
By the way,I don't undrstand why india forbid the areas towards china? It sounds like indian goverment is still holding some cold war concepts.It should not be done by a so-called democratic country.

yes ur fighting tibetan insurgency which the whole world knows ..lol..give me a break man....india recognised tibet as part of china because that was a political step. india also recognised israel after many years. that doesn't mean india doesn't support the cause of palestine.
tibetans are monks. buddhists. non violent people. if they took up guns to defend their home i don't blame them. what similarity china has with tibet that it captured tibet? language, culture, what??

if u think soldiers defending the capital is a horrible sight u ll see this horrible sight even in nyc...the world is at war against islamic fundamentalists.
its nothing to be ashamed of.

if u think i have extreme ideas read my views on the asian games thread and u will know why i have such ideas. i feel chinese have a complex. the day i ll believe this is not true i ll change my ideas.

[chinesemilitaryfan]

ok,I hope the day will come soon.
I suggest you learn some chinese first,then you can visit the chinese website and check out what they are talking and what they can talk,then you will have a complete picture about current china and new knowledge about the so-called communist country(the communist in china is really diffrent from other communist).
Yes,china has some short-comings,but,pls don't always link these short-coming with communist.The world is complicated,not just one link can solve.Just like I can not link every short-coming of india with the democratic.
There is no absolute thing in the world including the concepte of communist and democratic.Everything is changing so fast including the definition of everthing.

[chinesemilitaryfan]

similarity china has with tibet that it captured tibet? language, culture, what??
Ok,I can ask you the same question, india has so many languages why it is not divided to so many countries. You may teach indian history again,then I will teach you chinese histrory,then the endless again.So,pls,stop this argue.Since,india is so close to tibet,I wellcome you to visit tibet(it is open to all the people worldwide),then you will have a good view of everything also you will have a glance about what is happening in the other parts of china.I am sure you will be suprised.
"This is definitly not what I was expecting" is used very frequently by indian people when they arrive china.

[Neo]

similarity china has with tibet that it captured tibet? language, culture, what??
Ok,I can ask you the same question, india has so many languages why it is not divided to so many countries. You may teach indian history again,then I will teach you chinese histrory,then the endless again.So,pls,stop this argue.Since,india is so close to tibet,I wellcome you to visit tibet(it is open to all the people worldwide),then you will have a good view of everything also you will have a glance about what is happening in the other parts of china.I am sure you will be suprised.
"This is definitly not what I was expecting" is used very frequently by indian people when they arrive china.

i have not visited china but i know what is it like. i appreciate the way chinese cities are developing. thats good. in fact if any one can find one place where i have said that china is not making progress economically i will admit i was wrong. what i don't like about chinese attitude is that they refuse to accept that others are also making progress.
if u want me to impress by visiting china,i invite you to visit bangalore or hyderabad. u will not see skyscrapers because we don't need them but you will see all the MNCs u ever heard of lining the technology parks and some having huge campuses. if u visit ISRO you will see the kind of R&D facility they have there. people tend to forget that economic sanctions after the nuclear tests in 1995 din't cripple indian economy like it has done to north korea for example.
we have a good mixed economy. the problem is equitable distribution of resources among the people. since india is a democracy, this distribution will be gradual and based on merit unlike in communism.
if the chinese on these forums keep raking up issues like beggars on street and tall claims about china's prowess while ignoring india, why do they expect indians to only see the bright side?
i have not seen one chinese post acknowledging india's space program, nuclear program or 100% literacy in the state of kerela. summarily rejection of india's development as a marketing propaganda.
do some introspection and you will understand what i mean. as i said if china is so advanced it should compare itself with japan not india. i don't think u will ever find an indian comparing india to china. no one will ever claim india is ahead of china coz we are not but we are not 100 years behind you as you want to believe. may be 20, not any more.
till you understand that, don't try to impress me with the skyline of shanghai. i find plenty of areas where china has decades of improvements needed.
matter of fact is india doesn't aspire to be china or even the USA, we have our own way of life and we will not substitute it by copying others.

[googleabcd]

do some introspection and you will understand what i mean. as i said if china is so advanced it should compare itself with japan not india.
You will be disappointed if you visit Chinese forums since Chinese there are comparing China to U.S.A.

Some of them don't even give a fxxx to Jap. As all we know, Japan's economic highly depends on export, as long as we take Taiwan back, everything is done.


don't try to impress me with the skyline of shanghai. i find plenty of areas where china has decades of improvements needed.
China already has hundreds of modern cities. In fact, some of them are even better than Shanghai in terms of life quality. For example, Guangzhou, Shenzhen.

As I mentioned, here are some plans of tens of chinese cities. They are planned, approved, and will be finished in the next five years. Some of these buildings and infrastructure have been done.

Beijing
http://static.flickr.com/50/107547285_346c06ec7e_o.jpg

Shanghai
http://static.flickr.com/55/107549920_a6cb43a9cc_b.jpg

Guangzhou
http://static.flickr.com/54/107547838_7d5a39dd9f_o.jpg

Shenzhen
http://static.flickr.com/55/107550470_9a03004ca1_o.jpg

[googleabcd]

ChongQing
http://static.flickr.com/50/107547835_a420819312_o.jpg

SuZhou
http://static.flickr.com/54/107551145_582dd8325a_o.jpg

WuHan
http://static.flickr.com/51/107551148_0bcd923ae4_o.jpg

NingBo
http://static.flickr.com/37/107549183_415671ff6d_o.jpg

[googleabcd]

if u want me to impress by visiting china,i invite you to visit bangalore or hyderabad. u will not see skyscrapers because we don't need them but you will see all the MNCs u ever heard of lining the technology parks and some having huge campuses. if u visit ISRO you will see the kind of R&D facility they have there. people tend to forget that economic sanctions after the nuclear tests in 1995 din't cripple indian economy like it has done to north korea for example.

Since you mention R&D center, you can take a look at the following Huawei's headquator. There are hundreds of similar R&D centers in China.

http://market.huawei.com/hwgg/photos/en/

[Neo]

Since you mention R&D center, you can take a look at the following Huawei's headquator. There are hundreds of similar R&D centers in China.

http://market.huawei.com/hwgg/photos/en/

I THINK is a failure of understanding here. why should I visit and see what china wants to do. We in India don't give a rats a** to that, i hope you realise that. We are too busy with developing our own country why should we bother what are china's plan for the next 5 years?

remember, I am not the one who is visiting chinese forums. you are on an indian forum. and the point completely escapes your attention that i have been making since long.

no one is denying china's achievement. its chinese here on indian forums denying india's achievement. i am not comparing india to china. its u who is doing so and making summary judgements. thats why i asked to you to visit the sites.

but as i see being a chinese somehow makes you blind to any thing other than china :) even japan is nothing for you. well for the rest of the world japan is still a powerful economy so i will let you live with ur biased mentality.

as for export driven economy, the less i say about the trade surplus of china with cheap manufacturing products in us market, the better.

my conclusion is that china is developing but chinese are biased and as i said earlier they think they are the only country developing. there is no point in discussing any topic with a biased person(s).

[Neo]

if buildings are all that matters ;)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=276307

there are lot of others on this site to satisfy the marketing gurus on this forum who refuse to open their eyes. and all of these are not from bangalore as most outsiders would assume. if people are interested in residential buildings pls let me know and i will fulfill that desire too

i don't have the time and patience to put all the images here so do self service and visit the link on the other forum...

[googleabcd]

To be honest, most of the rendings look really bad, like the work from some low class compnay. Infosys should hire some professional company to design these buildings.

Second, while India's IT almost 100% depends on out sourcing, China focuses on building Chinese brands.
For example, Huawei spends billions of dollars on R&D and they fire tens of thousands of patents every year. Nowadays, huawei is already able to compete with CISCO, Nortel worldwide.

The third generaion of Dragon Chip CPU just came up, which is able to compete with INTEL p4.
The next gold is to compete with the latest CPU of Intel/AMD, I am sure most Chinese people will buy the Dragon Chip once it comes to the retail market.

In the software field, China already has
-4 out of the top10 global websites
-the second largest search engine(baidu)
-the second largest instant messenger(tencent).
-The largest real-time Carrier billing systems

I was working in China TOP10 software companies and now working in North American TOP 10 companies.
I can say that in the software field expect OS/Database, China is almost at the same level as U.S/Canada.

if buildings are all that matters ;)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=276307

there are lot of others on this site to satisfy the marketing gurus on this forum who refuse to open their eyes. and all of these are not from bangalore as most outsiders would assume. if people are interested in residential buildings pls let me know and i will fulfill that desire too

i don't have the time and patience to put all the images here so do self service and visit the link on the other forum...

[Neo]

To be honest, most of the rendings look really bad, like the work from some low class compnay. Infosys should hire some professional company to design these buildings.

Second, while India's IT almost 100% depends on out sourcing, China focuses on building Chinese brands.
For example, Huawei spends billions of dollars on R&D and they fire tens of thousands of patents every year. Nowadays, huawei is already able to compete with CISCO, Nortel worldwide.

The third generaion of Dragon Chip CPU just came up, which is able to compete with INTEL p4.
The next gold is to compete with the latest CPU of Intel/AMD, I am sure most Chinese people will buy the Dragon Chip once it comes to the retail market.

In the software field, China already has
-4 out of the top10 global websites
-the second largest search engine(baidu)
-the second largest instant messenger(tencent).
-The largest real-time Carrier billing systems

I was working in China TOP10 software companies and now working in North American TOP 10 companies.
I can say that in the software field expect OS/Database, China is almost at the same level as U.S/Canada.

again, you show ample proof of ur biased opinion but since you started it let me show u some truth.
to the rest of the world china's industry are nothing but a cheap manufacturing outsourcing location. see any chinese product and its a cheap, low quality copy of some standard bran