59th Independence Day

[pankaj]

Hello Friends

We are going to celebrate 59th Independence Day on 15th August.Would like to share your views on this day that What has India gained and What has India lost in these fifty nine years.

Are we really Independent ?

[India1989]

India has achieved a lot in these 59 years. India has become one of the top 5 militarily powerful countries. India has become an IT superpower, reduced poverty and unemployment by huge amount. made a country with huge diversity together, increased per capita income and better education facilities, better movies, huge advancements in space and many more.

But India has lost a lot. India coudln't control terrorism. Half of Indians don't know what are Indians and who are Indians, division, lack of togetherness, hostility towards other Indians, lack of trust among different people groups, Kashmir problem and NE problem, still lots of people in poverty, not good infrastructure and many more.

But our achievement outnumbers our loses.

[snower]

India has become one of the top 5 militarily powerful countries.

please justify thsi claim. hehe.. give me some details please. :)

[Puneet Sood]

Its a fact. There is no need to justify this. Please note

[snower]

hehe. interesting. indian seems live in dreams. please tell me which 5 countries are these top 5 military powers? do you think indian is stronger than anyone of japan, britain and france? ( I suppose US, china and russia are the other 3 in this top 5)

[bhachoudhary]

hehe. interesting. indian seems live in dreams. please tell me which 5 countries are these top 5 military powers? do you think indian is stronger than anyone of japan, britain and france? ( I suppose US, china and russia are the other 3 in this top 5)

japan doesn't have a military dumbo...get ur history right first....japan was disarmed at the end of WW2...what an idiot u are...

[snower]

japan doesn't have a military dumbo...get ur history right first....japan was disarmed at the end of WW2...what an idiot u are...

of course i know that, but even with that, india is still by far not a match of japan in term of military power. hehe.

ok, i cede one step. let's forget jap, ok? what about britain and france? they seems more likely to be the other 2 in the top 5, how do you comment on this? :)

[bhachoudhary]

of course i know that, but even with that, india is still by far not a match of japan in term of military power. hehe.

DUDE ur more stupid than i thought, if japan has no army, how can any country be less than japan in terms of military power...hahahaha....
there's no such thing as negative military power idiot...if japan has zero military power any country with even 1 soldier will have more military power than japan...hahaha



ok, i cede one step. let's forget jap, ok? what about britain and france? they seems more likely to be the other 2 in the top 5, how do you comment on this? :)

First of all, I don't know what rank India is in terms of military power. I dint make the statement about 5th. Unlike you I don't open my mouth about things which I can't prove with facts.

But any idiot would understand that any military's strength is judged by a few parameters like the number of army personnel , reserves, air force squadrons, naval power etc....based on some of these parameters heres a ranking for ur brain

http://www.globalfirepower.com/index.asp

Ur fav Britain and France rank much lower than India because they are small countries and their entire population would be probably the stregth of Indian army.

now shut the **** up....ur just stupid ....so take my advice and instead of being a dumbo...go read in a school...ur not able to talk intelligently...hehehe

[snower]

counting men and weapons does not give a reliable estimation of millitary power.

a millitary super power have to prove itself with at least a victory over another major millitary super power. US, russia, china, germany, japan, france..... all have glorious history of wars. in china's long history, she defeated Huns and Turks and drove them west to europe, they overthrow Mongol's rule and put all mongolians under her governing, now most mongolians are under chinese rule. now, the well-know chinese PLA had been fighting with US army in Korean war and force US to sign a peace agreement without gaining a victory. ( the US representative was crying at that day that he was the first american to sign a non-victory peac agreement in history :) ). PLA had been fighting with japan, US, USSR (in a small-scale border confliction), india, vietnam, and PLA did not lose anyone of them.

now, my question is: has indian army win any war over a major power? if not, how dare you say indian army is among top 5? just by counting numer of men and weapon?

[bhachoudhary]

counting men and weapons does not give a reliable estimation of millitary power.

a millitary super power have to prove itself with at least a victory over another major millitary super power. US, russia, china, germany, japan, france..... all have glorious history of wars. in china's long history, she defeated Huns and Turks and drove them west to europe, they overthrow Mongol's rule and put all mongolians under her governing, now most mongolians are under chinese rule. now, the well-know chinese PLA had been fighting with US army in Korean war and force US to sign a peace agreement without gaining a victory. ( the US representative was crying at that day that he was the first american to sign a non-victory peac agreement in history :) ). PLA had been fighting with japan, US, USSR (in a small-scale border confliction), india, vietnam, and PLA did not lose anyone of them.

now, my question is: has indian army win any war over a major power? if not, how dare you say indian army is among top 5? just by counting numer of men and weapon?

i m not saying that u moron. its a independent 3rd party site that has come up with the rankings. go and ask them ur stupid questions. ur one of those who will not admit they are wrong even when u have ur own foot in ur mouth.
this is pinnacle of stupidity. first u said india ranks lower than britain and france now instead of admitting u were wrong ur coming up with stupid arguments.

worse u have no sense of history and present. u mix fights in medeival ages with current military power of countries. how stupid can u be dude. ur really a fraud i think. u cant be a PhD or anything. i m sure u r retarded person somewhere in a remote place.

what war u won against japan? u keep repeating the same story again and again. u lost 25 million, half of ur country. u call that a win? fortunately for us there have been no major wars and we are not stupid to go into a war for nothing. the tiny nation of pakistan was shown its place when it tried 3 times to act smart with us

we are not like u to loose half of the country to a island. gimme a break. its idiotic to talk of war in today's world. no one can win. how long do u think will it take for US to destroy China or vice versa. today is a nuclear world, the strength of armies are not important anymore. China can be crushed to its knees within days by any country with nuclear weapons. its another matter that the whole world will be destroyed. if u dont understand such small things i pity u....as i said ur retarded... go and complete ur thesis...at least u will not waste other people times with ur stupidity...

[snower]

fortunately for us there have been no major wars and we are not stupid to go into a war for nothing.

yes. that's why you were colonised by a small group of british for 250 years.

[Neo]

yes. that's why you were colonised by a small group of british for 250 years.

dude? where are u from ? jungle? who told u the british ruled india for 250 years?haha....do u know how to count? if not go back to kindergarten

nd it doesn't suit u, who is a slave of communism to talk abt freedom and colonisation.

[snower]

oh? :) then you tell me how many years? 240 or 230?

tell me please.

[Neo]

oh? :) then you tell me how many years? 240 or 230?

tell me please.

whats the use? u don't know history and u don't know how to count it seems..haha...

i m not here to educate all the morons of the world...:D

[Punjabi]

hehe. interesting. indian seems live in dreams. please tell me which 5 countries are these top 5 military powers? do you think indian is stronger than anyone of japan, britain and france? ( I suppose US, china and russia are the other 3 in this top 5)

I think India is stronger militarily than Japan & France. The British Navy & Air Force are better than India, but their Army is not that great. The top 5 IMHO would be US, China, Russia, Israel & India.

[Punjabi]

yes. that's why you were colonised by a small group of british for 250 years.

Yaar, which great country are you from ? ;)

[Punjabi]

now, my question is: has indian army win any war over a major power? if not, how dare you say indian army is among top 5? just by counting numer of men and weapon?

India has won 4 wars against Pakistan, and the Pakistani army is definitely among the top 10 in the world. By your logic, even China & Russia have not won any wars against major powers, so they should not be in the list. I think capability & potential matters more than what was done many years ago.

[snower]

even China & Russia have not won any wars against major powers, so they should not be in the list.

haha, buddy, read more books. china won over many major powers. if you look up the history, the Huns, Turks, were all driven west to europe by strong chinese empires. the Mongols were defeated by chinese and put under chinese rule till now. hehe. if you check the modern histroty of the famous chinese PLA army, they defeated japan in WWII. they defeat US army in Korean war. and don't forget, ;) they won over indian in 1962, hehe. they invaded vietnam and taught a good lesson to those war-harden vietnamese fighters.

russia did not win any major powers? haha, i'm afraid you need to study more, don't so easily show your ignorance. :), check the history by yourself, who conquered all mongol tribes in the vast sibra? who killed the most german in WWII? who destroied the japanese Guan Dong army in the last stage of WWII?

[Neo]

haha, buddy, read more books. china won over many major powers. if you look up the history, the Huns, Turks, were all driven west to europe by strong chinese empires. the Mongols were defeated by chinese and put under chinese rule till now. hehe. if you check the modern histroty of the famous chinese PLA army, they defeated japan in WWII. they defeat US army in Korean war. and don't forget, ;) they won over indian in 1962, hehe. they invaded vietnam and taught a good lesson to those war-harden vietnamese fighters.

russia did not win any major powers? haha, i'm afraid you need to study more, don't so easily show your ignorance. :)

for the information of all i would like to point out a important thing here. there are two types of history. One as the rest of the world knows and the other as the Chinese knows. hehe

well in the world of chinese, they have been an unconquerable power ever since dinosaurs exited the planet and chinese took over :D

the reality is somewhat different but for that u need to study in a normal school not a school controlled by the communists.

ok next let me show u how idiot this chinese is. first of all let us cut out the crap of ancient history. mongold, turks etc are long gone and serve no purpose in modern world.

lets take the wars the chinese mentioned above and enlighten him

1. war with japan - china was occupied by japan for many years during the sino japanese war. the japanese made a mockery of chinese power. thats why there is so much hatred in china for japan even now. remember few months ago how the chinese government instigated its goons to attack japanese businesses in china? the reason- because japan ****ed the shit out of china during these wars and the chinese like this one- ignorant but burning are still not able to digest that fact.
japan was defeated by the US, entire world knows of hiroshima and nagasaki, except the chinese here who thinks his great nation defeated japan.

2. korean war- i quote this from wikipedia

"The Korean War, conducted from June 25, 1950 to a cease-fire on July 27, 1953 was a war between North Korea and South Korea (technically, the Koreas remain at war). When conflicts began, North and South Korea existed as provisional governments competing for control over the Korean Peninsula after the Division of Korea. The principal combatants were North Korea, later alongside the People's Volunteer Army (PVA) of the People's Republic of China, with support by Soviet combat advisors, aircraft pilots, and weapons; and South Korea, alongside the United States (U.S.), the United Kingdom (UK), Canada and the Philippines, with many other nations sending troops under the aegis of the United Nations (UN)."

china at that time was struggling after its own recent civil war and was in no position to do anything. it was not in Russia's interest to let US gain a foothold in korea and thats why N. Korea is today in what state it is.
All china did was supply militia to fight the UN forces. Obviously they have too many to spare with that population and as i have made the point earlier for them it is easy to push chinese like flies into a war zone :)

3. As for countries like vietnam and Tibet- what can be said of them. Chinese have shown what cowards they are, attacking those that are either week or believers in non voilence and without armies. Vietnam was already broke with the war with US and what the chinese did. Go ahead and show their bravery against the poor women and kids of that country. instead of being ashamed of that, this chinese feels proud about it.
what they are doing in tibet is here

http://www.tibet.org/

There are millions of refugees from Tibet in India. If china is such a nice country why din't they stay there? I will tell you why. Chinese are like a pest. They infest and destroy the crop they feed on. Because their country is not good enough to feed the billions they breed they keep looking for weaker countries to goble up.

The current policy of chinese government is to make Tibetans a minority in their own country by pushing chinese to settle there giving them incentives likes 3 months vacation for every 18 months of work, double pay etc.

4. As for India, Nehru made a big mistake. Remember the slogan Hindi-China are brothers? Well he was fooled to trust the chinese. As I said chinese are pest and you can not be friends with pest. Nehru had no troops on the border. big mistake. the chinese pest saw the oppurtunity to grab some more land and attacked. however it backed up as soon as it saw the US sending its warships to the region

as i pointed out the chinese are just good against small countries as soon as they smell power they back off like mice..thats why very recently the chinese gave up on their claim to the state of sikkim.

they realise now, india is too much a deal for them. in the next life of Mao, they can think of taking over sikkim so they acted smart...hehe

that was history lesson 1 for you chinese. come back for more if you want some schooling...hehe

[Punjabi]

haha, buddy, read more books. china won over many major powers. if you look up the history, the Huns, Turks, were all driven west to europe by strong chinese empires. the Mongols were defeated by chinese and put under chinese rule till now. hehe. if you check the modern histroty of the famous chinese PLA army, they defeated japan in WWII. they defeat US army in Korean war. and don't forget, ;) they won over indian in 1962, hehe. they invaded vietnam and taught a good lesson to those war-harden vietnamese fighters.

russia did not win any major powers? haha, i'm afraid you need to study more, don't so easily show your ignorance. :), check the history by yourself, who conquered all mongol tribes in the vast sibra? who killed the most german in WWII? who destroied the japanese Guan Dong army in the last stage of WWII?

Pls read my entire post, before you jump in to show your stupidity. I accept that China is among the top 5 military poweres based on potential/capability.

But when we talk of China winning against major powers I mean modern warfare, not 500-1000 year old history.

You need to get a reality check, my friend. The whole world knows how China won over India in 1962 ;). On one side China was talkling peace & friendship and on the other side they stabbed us in the back.

[snower]

On one side China was talkling peace & friendship and on the other side they stabbed us in the back.

china back stab india in 1962? hehe, wait, let me tell you something.

do you know why indian government keep all the record and documentations of that war secret? why don't they publish all this resources and make it accessible to the public ??? that was a war 40 years ago, there is no reason to keep it secret now. :)

because the reason of that war is Nehru applied a "forward policy" on north border, indian army pushed into chinese tibet. at that time, china was the enemy of both US and USSR, so nehru believed china dare not use brutal force against india, but obviously he underestimated Mao's mind. Mao judged that neithor US nor USSR dare to back stab china when china beat india, and, the history shows, Mao was right. so Mao ordered the PLA on border to counter attack indian and push into india to teach them a lesson, after that, the PLA withdraw to the traditional border. Mao said: "if we have to make a war to india, then make it. we should use this war to guarantee at least another 30 years of peace on the sino-indian border"... of course your government won't let you know this, hehe... , in one word, indian was the aggressor in 1962.

china back stab india in 1962? maybe indian can self-comfort by this kind of belief. maybe this is a good excuse for your lose. but...

[Neo]

As i said, the chinese eat, sleep and dream what Mao told them. This chinese has no idea of history except as told to him by Mao. hehe
The same Mao who told them not to worship any God but him. clearly thats what this chinese does.

as for the war of 1962, this is the history as the world knows it.
Tibet was annexed by China ( as i said a habit of the chinese pest). Tibet was a independent country when the British had left India. Tibet had signed an agreement with the British demarcating what was called the MacMohan Line.
When China invaded helpless unarmed Tibet showing its pest nature, Nehru had no other way but to protect the MacMohan Line. He overdid that by going beyond MacMohan line in some areas which the chinese used as an excuse to launch a counter offensive.

None of the country's declared an all out war. It was not in china's interest since the cuban crisis was going on at the same time and this would have been taken as another communist aggression. Thats why after capturing aksai chin and some part of Arunachal pradesh which the chinese call south Tibet, it declared truce.

this truth is not hidden from any india. in fact we are proud of how our kumaon regiment of 100 soldiers made life miserable for the chinese.

end result, yes india lost the conflict. but not because china was a great power or anything. just because india was not prepared.

in today's world even china realises that its no longer possible to make any adventures. thats why sikkim is no longer on the map of china ;)

my chinese friend. don't u need sikkim? haha....why doesn't ur great chinese come and take it? are u scared of india now? well ?

stop basking in the glory of insignificant past and answer my following questions if you have any.

1. Why a small island of japan captured most of ur country if ur such a big force? why they kept those areas under their feet for decades and you could do nothing?

2. If chinese forces are so strong why does south korea exist today? why couldn't china "liberate" s.korea like it did in the north?

3. taiwan sits right under your nose proclaiming policies exactly opposite to beijing. why don't you have the guts to take it over if you are such a powerful force. are the chinese scared of US? hahaha

4. hongkong was a british territory till 1999. based on a treaty which the british forced you to sign in 1899. if china is such a great force, why it had to wait 100 years for the forced treaty to end? couldn't it have taken hongkong like it took tibet?

chinese look into your own house first and wake up from the dream you live in.

[Punjabi]

china back stab india in 1962? hehe, wait, let me tell you something.

do you know why indian government keep all the record and documentations of that war secret? why don't they publish all this resources and make it accessible to the public ??? that was a war 40 years ago, there is no reason to keep it secret now. :)

because the reason of that war is Nehru applied a "forward policy" on north border, indian army pushed into chinese tibet. at that time, china was the enemy of both US and USSR, so nehru believed china dare not use brutal force against india, but obviously he underestimated Mao's mind. Mao judged that neithor US nor USSR dare to back stab china when china beat india, and, the history shows, Mao was right. so Mao ordered the PLA on border to counter attack indian and push into india to teach them a lesson, after that, the PLA withdraw to the traditional border. Mao said: "if we have to make a war to india, then make it. we should use this war to guarantee at least another 30 years of peace on the sino-indian border"... of course your government won't let you know this, hehe... , in one word, indian was the aggressor in 1962.

china back stab india in 1962? maybe indian can self-comfort by this kind of belief. maybe this is a good excuse for your lose. but...

Chinese took advantage of the fact that India was unprepared. As soon as the US airforce flew in supplies to India, China declared a unilateral ceasefire since they knew that they would get their a$$ whipped.

In a way its good that India lost, since it taught us a lesson to never believe the Chinese & also led to better military preparation.

[snower]

Neo, can you answer me the question:

why dare not your government make the documentations of the war in 1962 accessible to the public? why do they keep it secret up to now? what is the dirty secret hidden behind?

:)

[snower]

As soon as the US airforce flew in supplies to India, China declared a unilateral ceasefire since ...

punjapi, can you please answer me a question:

in 1960's, india was the leader of the so called "Non-alignment" movement. and india boasted itself a famous "non-alignment" country. why did you align with US and ask US airforce to join the war? hehe, that's a slap on your own face. maybe they are in a big panic at that time... sad, sad for indian people.

[Neo]

Neo, can you answer me the question:

why dare not your government make the documentations of the war in 1962 accessible to the public? why do they keep it secret up to now? what is the dirty secret hidden behind?

:)
just like ur government din't make the news of outbreak of SARS public. why? was it ashamed of its poor handling of people dying like chicken ? :)

u answered none of my question and u expect me to answer a stupid ques of urs. the chinese has really no brain. i pity the chinese.

if the chinese can answer ny of the 4 ques i asked him above i ll und he is capable of thinking. can u answer chinese?

[Punjabi]

punjapi, can you please answer me a question:

in 1960's, india was the leader of the so called "Non-alignment" movement. and india boasted itself a famous "non-alignment" country. why did you align with US and ask US airforce to join the war? hehe, that's a slap on your own face. maybe they are in a big panic at that time... sad, sad for indian people.

Pls stick to the topic. India's non-alignment policy can be discussed separately. Frankly, I am not a big advocate to the non-aligned policy ;)

Tell me, why did the Chinese announce a ceasefire when they realized that the US was going to help India ?

[snower]

Tell me, why did the Chinese announce a ceasefire when they realized that the US was going to help India ?

because china finished the job. the job was to teach india a lesson, not to take indian land. after major indian forces on north border was destoried, the job finished. so PLA declared a cease fire.

DO you think US would have a war with china to help india? i don't think so. why should they shed blood for indian? US had suffered enough in Korean war, they know the capacity of PLA. an example, in vietnam war, because chinese government warned US if they pass north latitude 17 degree, chinese PLA will intervene, so the US army stayed south of latitude 17 degree during whole period of the war. they only bombed north vietnam by airforce, but their land surface force never dare to push into north vietnam. from here, probably you see how US fear PLA.

[Neo]

from here, probably you see how US fear PLA.

hahahaha...that was too good....all the chinese does is blah blah blah...
the chinese doesn't have answers to any of the questions about japan...

japan made you suffer 20 years.

N. Korea was created by Russian forces.

Hong kong was slave to England till 1999.

All China did was capture tibet - a defenceless nation.

Is this sign of a great army. gimme a break. this is a pest.

but offcourse the chinese has no answer. do u have an answer chinese?

[Punjabi]

because china finished the job. the job was to teach india a lesson, not to take indian land. after major indian forces on north border was destoried, the job finished. so PLA declared a cease fire.

DO you think US would have a war with china to help india? i don't think so. why should they shed blood for indian? US had suffered enough in Korean war, they know the capacity of PLA. an example, in vietnam war, because chinese government warned US if they pass north latitude 17 degree, chinese PLA will intervene, so the US army stayed south of latitude 17 degree during whole period of the war. they only bombed north vietnam by airforce, but their land surface force never dare to push into north vietnam. from here, probably you see how US fear PLA.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-prc_1962.htm

Read this & it will give you some perspective.

The Chinese did not advance further and on November 21 declared a unilateral cease-fire because they had accomplished all of their territorial objectives, and any attempt to press farther into the plains of Assam would have stretched their logistical capabilities and their lines of communication to a breaking point.

By the time the fighting stopped, each side had lost 500 troops. The Chinese realized that once India gets supplies & reorganizes, they would have to retreat.

Start reading something other than what the Communist Party of China feeds you :rolleyes:

[snower]

By the time the fighting stopped, each side had lost 500 troops.

this is obviously wrong, hehe, Western propaganda is always pro India and against communist China.

at least two indian Brigades were totally destoried, two Brigade, that's 7000 soldiers. The Brigadier of the 62nd Brigade, General Singh, was killed. and the Brigadier of the 7th Brigade General Dalvi was captured. think it again, both the commanders of this two units were killed and captured, let alone the soldiers.

i have two sources about indian casualties, one british source and one chinese source. they roughly fit with each other.

quote from Neville Maxwell's "india's china war":
" In 1965, the Defense Ministry released the figures of Indian losses: 1,383 killed, 1,696 missing, and 3,968 captured. Twenty-six of the Indians died of wounds in captivity, and the remainders were repatriated. About ninety percent of the Indian casualties were suffered in NEFA..."
"7 Brigade ceased to exist. On October 22, Brigadier Dalvi was taken prisoner."
"Brigadier Hoshiar Singh was shot dead at Phutang on November 27..."

According to chinese document i read. at least at least 4000 indian soldiers were captured, 3000 were killed.

and i also give you the chinese casualties i read from chinese side, 1200 soldiers dead or wounded. NO ONE captured.

[Neo]

what does that prove? if ur interested in figures of how good chinese army is let me show you some figures of how many chinese were killed by japan during the second sino japanese war.

"The Chinese lost approximately 3.22 million soldiers. 9.13 million civilians died in the crossfire, and another 8.4 million as non-military casualties. Some Chinese historians claimed the total military and non-military deaths of the Chinese were at most 35 million. Most Western historians believed that the casualties were at least 20 million. "

In addition, the war created 95 million refugees.

now chinese, tell me how big is china compared to japan? at least 20 times?
how large is the population? more than 100 times?

what a shame for you chinese. a tiny island made you miserable for almost 10 years till the US came to your rescue by bombing japan bringing an end to WW2.

what a shame for you chinese that in two wars you fought with the tiny nation of japan you were forced to sign humiliating treaties. even your so called great quing dynasty could not defeat a small island of japan.

chinese are u not ashamed of urself. after the first sino japanese war, china gave away taiwan to japan, japan freed korea.

what a shame. or in ur schools they don't teach you history.

this brings out the fact that chinese are nothing in the face of an aggression. like a pest they attack but when someone attacks them back they are killed like mice....hehehe

[Punjabi]

this is obviously wrong, hehe, Western propaganda is always pro India and against communist China.

at least two indian Brigades were totally destoried, two Brigade, that's 7000 soldiers. The Brigadier of the 62nd Brigade, General Singh, was killed. and the Brigadier of the 7th Brigade General Dalvi was captured. think it again, both the commanders of this two units were killed and captured, let alone the soldiers.

i have two sources about indian casualties, one british source and one chinese source. they roughly fit with each other.

quote from Neville Maxwell's "india's china war":
" In 1965, the Defense Ministry released the figures of Indian losses: 1,383 killed, 1,696 missing, and 3,968 captured. Twenty-six of the Indians died of wounds in captivity, and the remainders were repatriated. About ninety percent of the Indian casualties were suffered in NEFA..."
"7 Brigade ceased to exist. On October 22, Brigadier Dalvi was taken prisoner."
"Brigadier Hoshiar Singh was shot dead at Phutang on November 27..."

According to chinese document i read. at least at least 4000 indian soldiers were captured, 3000 were killed.

and i also give you the chinese casualties i read from chinese side, 1200 soldiers dead or wounded. NO ONE captured.

Chinese sources ? He He He :D

Well, if you dont believe western propaganda, why are you relying on Maxwell (a Britisher). He is western too. Or do you just believe western sources when it suits you ? :rolleyes: